Are people still using mutt, pine and elm to read email? �
-matt
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 11:59 AM
To: Bashioum, Christopher D; Chiusano Joseph;
Subject: RE: [soa-rm] RE: Act versus Object versus...both?
Please send text only, or do whatever is required so that I don't�
have to turn on html in my email client, because I will certainly�
forget to turn it off again before writing to other listservs where�
recipients get bent out of joint whenever they encounter this stuff.�
Of course, I also can't read whatever the message was supposed to be.
Rex
At 11:23 AM -0500 12/8/05, Bashioum, Christopher D wrote:
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent: 06
December
� � 2005 19:09 </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Cc:
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:
RE:
� � [soa-rm] Proposal: Reorganization of SOA-RM Draft for Better
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I agree
with Ken.
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The
service
� � consumer is the key concept that indicates the entity that invoked
the
� � service in the first place. </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">A�
brokering service
� � or service actor is merely a middle-man. </SPAN></FONT><FONT
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Wes
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY:
Arial">-----Original
� � Message----- </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From: Ken
Laskey
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:
December 6,
� � 2005 2:02 PM </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Cc:
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:
RE:
� � [soa-rm] Proposal: Reorganization of SOA-RM Draft for Better
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I could�
argue that
� � a broker consumes the service on someone else's behalf. In
reality,
� � service actor seems too nondescriptive because either the consumer
or the
� � provider can be thought of as an actor. </SPAN></FONT><FONT
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Ken
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">At 01:45
PM
� � color=black><SPAN
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � <P class=MsoNormal
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I hate to
stir
� � things up a bit, but can you change the service consumer term to
service
� � actor? </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Since in
the case
� � of brokering the service actor is not consuming but brokering a
request to
� � another service. </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The�
broker service
� � can be a service actor upon the service but might not really
consume any
� � part of the service since it is a pass through.
</SPAN></FONT><FONT
� � color=black><SPAN
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">But I�
guess this is
� � a matter of opinion. </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">- Dan
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY:
Arial">-----Original
� � Message----- </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
� � <P class=MsoNormal
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:�
Ken Laskey [
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
� � <P class=MsoNormal
� � style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in;�
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:
Tuesday,
� � December 06, 2005 10:39 AM </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:�
Duane Nickull;
� � Goran Zugic; Matt MacKenzie; MATHEWS, Tim; Sally St. Amand;
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Cc:
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
� � <P class=MsoNormal
� � style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in;�
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:
RE:
� � [soa-rm] Proposal: Reorganization of SOA-RM Draft for Better
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
� � <P class=MsoNormal
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I think�
we need to
� � add some words to the RM to capture this discussion. We�
cover part of
� � this in the beginning of Section 3.2.1 but need to be more
specific that:
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">- a
service
� � consumer can be a human or a software agent; </SPAN></FONT><FONT
� � color=black><SPAN
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">- a
service
� � consumer can invoke any number of services (including a single
service in
� � isolation) and can chain the output of some services to act as�
the input of
� � others; </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
� � <P class=MsoNormal
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">- from
the
� � perspective of a given service, the occurrence of such chaining�
would not be
� � visible; </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">- the
service
� � consumer can be implementing a business process;
</SPAN></FONT><FONT
� � color=black><SPAN
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
� � <P class=MsoNormal
� � style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in;�
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">- the�
specific of a
� � business process do not change the basic SOA concepts as described
in the
� � RM; however, the specific architecture that one designs and�
implements will
� � reflect the business process and make use of specific service�
instances that
� � corresponds to the real world effects that the business process
hopes to
� � realize. </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
� � <P class=MsoNormal
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Now�
that said, and
� � in full appreciation that we agreed earlier that mechanisms which
combine
� � services (e.g. choreography, orchestration) are out of scope, is
it
� � sufficient for words, such as those suggested above, to be
included
� � somewhere within the current discussion or do we need to pull it�
out into a
� � subsection on its own? As an example of the former, we tried
to deal
� � with loose-coupling and coarse-grained with words at the end of�
Section 2.1.
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Ken
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">At 12:23
PM
� � 12/6/2005, Duane Nickull wrote: </SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black><SPAN
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� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Goran:
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I�
slightly disagree
� � with your assertions, probably based on semantics. For a
service to
� � "participate" in a process, it would have to be aware of the�
process (which
� � many will not be). A better way to depict this may be to
state
� � "services may be aggregated and used by processes" and "processes
may be
� � represented/exposed as services". There are really no limits
to the
� � number of layers that can be present. Attached is a UML�
CVD depicting
� � such. </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">A key�
rationale of
� � why process is not part of SOA is that services cannot see
process.
� � They are not aware of whether they are being called as part of a�
process vs.
� � as an individual service. If the "s" part of SOA cannot see
or touch
� � that, it cannot be part of the RM. </SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black><SPAN
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The�
chicken and egg
� � discussion you bring forward is a requirement for those building�
services to
� � strongly consider the business process when designing their
service
� � infrastructure. Accordingly, it is not really part of the RM
for SOA
� � yet I agree that it is a very important consideration.
</SPAN></FONT><FONT
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">For your
messages
� � to get to the list, you must join as a "applicant" rather than�
an "observer"
� � as per OASIS process. </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Duane
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY:�
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Adobe
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Chair -
OASIS SOA
� � Reference Model Technical Committee </SPAN></FONT><FONT
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Personal
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:�
Goran Zugic [
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:
Monday,
� � December 05, 2005 8:47 PM </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
� � <P class=MsoNormal
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:�
Duane Nickull;
� � Matt MacKenzie; MATHEWS, Tim; Sally St. Amand;
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Cc:
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:
Re:
� � [soa-rm] Proposal: Reorganization of SOA-RM Draft for Better
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Duane,
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Thanks
for the
� � response. Yes I would like to see the PPT. I hope you do not mind
if I add
� � few more thoughts related to services and business processes:
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Services
� � participate in a business process to add some value to it. They
can be
� � governed and evaluated using business process metrics. One service
can
� � participate in many business processes and provide value to each
of them
� � according to the context within that process. As far as SOA is�
concerned it
� � is as important to know what the service does, how it can be
discovered,
� � contacted, invoked, executed, etc. as it is to be able to use it�
within the
� � process context, measure it and assess its value from the business
process
� � requirements point of view. SOA needs to avoid typical new
technology
� � chicken and egg syndrome, e.g. companies not producing services
because
� � there are no service friendly process definitions to use them�
and not having
� � SOA friendly process definitions because there are no services to
use.
� � Services do not have to know if they will be involved in the
process
� � upfront, they will be contacted on demand according to the process
script
� � that is in effect, and they will be contacted, checked if�
available, passed
� � the arguments, collected the response and according to their�
procedure left
� � alone to wait for another call. The process execution engine
however needs
� � to invoke the service according to both service specific�
information and the
� � process specific information. </SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black><SPAN
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Having
just the
� � service specific information in a model covers only one part of�
the picture
� � and I think it is fine as long as that model is a pure service
model.
� � However I find it difficult to understand that the SOA RM TC�
model is a SOA
� � reference model when it does not include other concepts of SOA.
� � Unfortunately it seems that we cannot get to the point where we�
could agree
� � on a minimal set of supported SOA concepts by a model to be the
<st1:place
� � w:st="on"><st1:PlaceName w:st="on">SOA</st1:PlaceName>
<st1:PlaceType
� � w:st="on">RM.</st1:PlaceType></st1:place> We do not have to
and I do
� � not want to argue with you or anybody else in SOA RM TC. I am�
just trying to
� � see how our works can fit together in a most efficient way. We
obviously
� � need more time to better understand each others thoughts and ideas
and I
� � strongly believe that a constructive respectable discussion is
helpful for
� � everybody. </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">By the�
way, do you
� � know what I am supposed to do to get my messages to the SOA RM
list. In
� � spite of that I am the SOA RM TC observer I get a faliure notice�
whenever I
� � send a note to the <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceName
� � w:st="on">SOA</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType
� � w:st="on">RM.</st1:PlaceType></st1:place>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Goran
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">-----
Original
� � Message ----- </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � <P class=MsoNormal
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:�
Duane Nickull
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
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� � <P class=MsoNormal
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:�
Matt MacKenzie
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Cc:
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:
Monday,
� � December 05, 2005 5:02 PM </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:
RE:
� � [soa-rm] Proposal: Reorganization of SOA-RM Draft for Better
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Goran:
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The
service layer
� � enables the process layer over top of it, however during runtime,
services
� � do not know if they are part of a process or being called
individually (it
� � would generally be a bad idea to try to maintain the overall state
of a
� � process within each service, although it could be done). For
maximum
� � repurposing of services, it would be better to have the service�
as a simple
� � slave to the processes that may use it. </SPAN></FONT><FONT
� � color=black><SPAN
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY:
Arial">Accordingly, we
� � made a decision that BPM, Orchestration, choreography is not a�
core part of
� � the RM for SOA. We generally seem to agree that many SOA
� � implementations will include a layer of BPM over top. We are
only
� � addressing the SOA model, not the model for the underlying or
overarching
� � layers. </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I have a
PPT that
� � explains this in more detail if you are interested.
</SPAN></FONT><FONT
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Duane
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY:�
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � face=Arial color=black size=3><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Adobe
Systems,
� � Inc. - </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=navy><SPAN
� � style="COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY:�
� � face=Arial color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY:
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� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � face=Arial color=black size=3><SPAN lang=FR-CA
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial;�
mso-ansi-language: FR-CA">Vice
� � Chair - UN/CEFACT </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=navy
� � size=2><SPAN lang=FR-CA
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial;�
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN lang=FR-CA
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext;�
mso-ansi-language: FR-CA"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Chair -
OASIS SOA
� � Reference Model Technical Committee </SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black><SPAN
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Personal
Blog -
color=black><SPAN
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY:�
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� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:
Matt
color=black><SPAN
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:
Monday,
� � December 05, 2005 12:51 PM </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Cc:
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:
RE:
� � [soa-rm] Proposal: Reorganization of SOA-RM Draft for Better
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Process�
orientation
� � is only one of multiple potential integration with service
oriented
� � architecture. SOA-RM is laying the foundation for durable�
architecture
� � based on the core concept of service orientation. We
recognize that
� � process oriented architecture is a natural fit with service
� � orientation...but so are things like event orientation.�
</SPAN></FONT><FONT
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">-matt
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:
Monday,
� � December 05, 2005 3:36 PM </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:
MATHEWS, Tim;
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Cc:
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:
Re:
� � [soa-rm] Proposal: Reorganization of SOA-RM Draft for Better
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I think�
that SOA RM
� � has done good job documenting well-known service related concepts
and
� � defining some new ones. </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I do�
not see other
� � details besides service and service-related concept definitions in
the
� � current SOA RM committee draft right now. I look forward to seeing
the
� � completion of the model you are working on with the bottom-up
approach.
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY:�
Arial">Business, business
� � processes and collaboration aspects of business are important to�
address in
� � the model what is not the case with the current content of the SOA
RM
� � committee draft. By a business process I mean a generic business
process
� � entity which has common components (activities, decisions, etc)
and
� � relationships between them that can be used to model a business
process in
� � any environment regardless of what business we support and
technology we
� � use. I agree with Sally that a link between business processes�
and services
� � should be one of key requirements any SOA reference model should
try to
� � meet. </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I am�
not sure what
� � SOA with services brings to business when the link between the
business
� � processes and services and overall business process semantics in
the SOA
� � context are not considered to be important aspects in a�
SOA-based reference
� � model. </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Goran
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY:
Arial">-----Original
� � Message----- </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:�
MATHEWS, Tim
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
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� � <P class=MsoNormal
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:
Monday,
� � December 5, 2005 12:34 PM </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To: 'Matt
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
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� � <P class=MsoNormal
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Cc:
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:
RE:
� � [soa-rm] Proposal: Reorganization of SOA-RM Draft for Better
� � "Componentization" </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
� � <P class=MsoNormal
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Matt - I
am not
� � sure what point you are trying to make by this? I agree with
your
� � premise of a bottom up effort, as this was one of the operating�
assumptions
� � that was made from the beginning. </SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black><SPAN
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
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� � <P class=MsoNormal
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">But, I�
am confident
� � it is the business environment that is independent from the�
reference model.
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">TM
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:
Matt
color=black><SPAN
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:
Monday,
� � December 05, 2005 11:58 AM </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To: Sally
St.
color=black><SPAN
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Cc:
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:
RE:
� � [soa-rm] Proposal: Reorganization of SOA-RM Draft for Better
� � "Componentization" </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sally,
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">A
reference model
� � actually needs to be a bottom up effort. We leave the ever�
so popular
� � ?top-down? approach to folks like ebSOA J </SPAN></FONT><FONT
� � color=black><SPAN
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">We?re
creating a
� � vocabulary and general understanding of what I hope we can call�
a discipline
� � of computer science in the future. This means, we need a
durable
� � reference model that is not dependent on the current business
environment.
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">-matt
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:
Sally St.
color=black><SPAN
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:
Monday,
� � December 05, 2005 10:19 AM </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Cc:
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:
Re:
� � [soa-rm] Proposal: Reorganization of SOA-RM Draft for Better
� � "Componentization" </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Frank
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
� � style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt:�
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">This is�
in response
� � to your request on last week?s conference call, if anyone has�
comments speak
� � now. I also think that the recent comments on clarifying sections
are a
� � reflection of my issues with the specification.
</SPAN></FONT><FONT
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
� � </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I agree
with the
� � majority of points made/described in ver 10. My issues are with�
what is not
� � in this draft. Based on Fig 1 the Refe! rence Model is guided by
Reference
� � Architectures, Concrete Architectures, Profile & Related�
Models. They in
� � turn account for requirements, motivation & goals. This is
creating a
� � Reference Model from the bottom up. I believe a Reference Model
should
� � reflect a top down approach. </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The�
Reference Model
� � needs to reflect the environment, the strategy and the priorities
of the
� � business/mission/collaboration. This will impact the
construction of
� � services. A service is a business task or activity that is�
realized through
� � technology. The draft does a good job of describing how that
realization
� � happens. But it doesn?t provide a sufficient link between
processes and
� � services. The draft makes the point that the central focus of! SOA
is the
� � task of business function?getting something done. A business�
process is made
� � up of tasks and activities to achieve a goal (getting something
done). The
� � concept of creating the service from the tasks and activities in a
process
� � is important. For example, where on the continuum of fine�
grained to coarse
� � grained should a particular service be; this will affect
interaction,
� � reusability. The relationship between processes and services�
needs to be in
� � the Reference Model. </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">While I
saw that
� � there is a note saying the glossary is still in flux, since one of
the
� � objective of the Reference Model is a vocabulary, having less in
the
� � glossary might be a better option. Is semantic integration a
guiding
� � principle of SOA? </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
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� � face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">With
respect to
� � conformance there needs to be business results. That is an SOA
should
� � provide demonstrable mission accomplishments, e.g. ROI, match a�
competitors
� � distribution channel. SOA is not a technology. Conformance should
provide
� � operational accomplishments, these should be measurable.�
</SPAN></FONT><FONT
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� � style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sally
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</x-html>
--�
Rex Brooks
President, CEO
Starbourne Communications Design
GeoAddress: 1361-A Addison
Berkeley, CA 94702
Tel: 510-849-2309