John,
Maybe this is a potential delineation then:
Observable Instances with extra context = Sightings
Not like an Incident but Kinda like an Incident = Investigation/Tagging object (as I proposed yesterday).
This would allow the ‘grouping’ aspect to be handled by the Investigation(tagging) object, and the ‘these are things I’ve seen’ aspect
to be handled by the Sightings object. The delineation is clear enough to make both objects easy to understand.
Cheers
Terry MacDonald
Senior STIX Subject Matter Expert
SOLTRA | An FS-ISAC and DTCC Company
+61 (407) 203 206 |
From: Wunder, John A. [mailto:]
Sent: Thursday, 29 October 2015 12:08 AM
To: Jonathan Bush (DTCC) <>
Cc: Jordan, Bret <>; Thompson, Dean <>; Terry MacDonald <>; Jason Keirstead <>;
Subject: Re: [cti-stix] Top-level Sighting Object from last meeting
The best use case I can think of for automated non-observable (non-indicator?) sightings is TTPs: for example, a virus scanner might say they found a piece of malware (TTP/Malware) or an application security firewall might say that it saw
some SQLi attempts (TTP/Attack_Pattern).
I don’t know what I’m suggesting here, just a use case I thought I’d throw out. I do like the idea of having some kind of “not quite incident but kinda like incident” construct to represent things like this and limiting Sighting to just
things we have an observable for, but I can imagine the objection people have when they wonder whether to produce a “Sighting” or an “Event” or an “Incident".
John
On Oct 28, 2015, at 6:37 AM, Bush, Jonathan <> wrote:
I agree with that as well. In fact, as I read your statement Bret, I thought “if this isn’t the case, what are the chances that anyone would ever really use them?”.
There would simply be too much manual data entry to be practical. These are the kinds of call-outs that we all need to identify and keep in mind. In this particular
situation, it may not change how we design the object, but I suppose it could in some less-than-obvious way.
Great stuff…
From:
[mailto:]
On Behalf Of Jordan, Bret
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2015 6:23 PM
To: Thompson, Dean
Cc: Terry MacDonald; Jason Keirstead;
Subject: Re: [cti-stix] Top-level Sighting Object from last meeting
I think the vast majority of sightings will be more or less auto generated. There may be a need to support sightings of other higher level objects, but the quantity or volume of those will be really small in relative
terms.
Thanks,
Bret
Bret Jordan CISSP
Director of Security Architecture and Standards | Office of the CTO
Blue Coat Systems
PGP Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447 F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 0050
"Without cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that can not be unscrambled is an egg."
On Oct 27, 2015, at 15:13, Thompson, Dean <> wrote:
Hi!,
Does this depend on what is producing the sighting object ?, for example the first option appeals to me because from an ability to auto-script and
generate it could be potentially easy to make those links of observations to a sighting object. With regards to “Threat Actor’s” and “TTP’s”, doesn’t it get a little hard because (based on the experience I have had), you have more softer definitions you place
into those top level objects, they are not straight out IP addresses, MD5’s or email addresses.
Do others seeing the sighting object as being a construct which would more times than not be something that is auto-generated by various systems,
rather than a construct put together manually which include thought and analysis ? (that’s not to say that you couldn’t do that, just that it is a lot harder).
Personally, I prefer option 1.
Regards,
Dean
From: [mailto:] On
Behalf Of Terry MacDonald
Sent: Tuesday, 27 October 2015 9:57 AM
To: Terry MacDonald; Jason Keirstead
Cc:
Subject: RE: [cti-stix] Top-level Sighting Object from last meeting
Hi All,
One other thing I wanted to highlight was a point raised by Aharon late last week in the STIX meeting. We need to discuss what exactly we want the Sighting Object
to be able to reference. As I understand it the available options are:
· Should
a Sighting Object only reference ‘detected’ information (e.g. Observable Instances only – most similar to an Indicator)
OR
· Should
a Sighting Object reference any other top-level Object (e.g. Threat Actor’s, TTPs, etc). This will be the most flexible and least restrictive for the future.
OR
· Should
a Sighting Object reference some top-level Objects based on STIX model (e.g. Threat Actor’s, TTPs, Indicators, Incident, Report)
My personal preference is for the first option – but I am very interested
in what others think. I think we need to scope the Sighting object and discuss its purpose fairly early on to work out exactly where it will fit in the model.
Cheers
Terry MacDonald
Senior STIX Subject Matter Expert
SOLTRA | An FS-ISAC and DTCC Company
+61 (407) 203 206 |
From: [mailto:] On
Behalf Of Terry MacDonald
Sent: Tuesday, 27 October 2015 9:21 AM
To: Jason Keirstead <>
Cc:
Subject: RE: [cti-stix] Top-level Sighting Object from last meeting
Hi Jason
- What is "Alternative_ID" ?
The Alternative_ID was taken from the IndicatorType object. From that object’s description it ‘Specifies an alternative identifier (or alias) for the cyber threat
Indicator.’. The idea was to allow the Sighting to have a reference of some kind, referring back to the ID that the tool that identified it had given it. It may not be useful in the Sighting context but I wanted to include it just in case. TBH we may want
to think more about how we handle ‘aliases’ in general across the whole STIX model…
- Can you add to the proposal, which fields would be mandatory, and which optional? It's unclear to me. I presume a subset is mandatory, but not all.
Yes, my thinking was that a subset of the Sighting fields would be mandatory. I’ve suggested some below but would really like to see what everyone else thinks.
Suggested Mandatory Fields
· Version
· Title
· Timestamp
/ Time Period
· One
or more referenced objects (i.e. idref) – (This would be done via Top-level relationship object)
Suggested Optional Fields
· Sighting
Count
· Timestamp
/ Time Period
· Victim
Organization information
· Producer
Organization information
· Sighting
Confidence
· TLP
/ Data Markings
· Alternative
Sighting ID
· Sighting
Type
· Description
· Short
Description
Mark’s other post earlier today reminded me that I had earlier requested a Sighting object last year (https://github.com/STIXProject/schemas/issues/306).
In there I even drew a nice updated STIX model diagram to include where I personally saw the Sighting object located (thanks to Bret for the visio). But this may help provide more context?
<image001.jpg>
Please note this reflects my own personal viewpoint.
Cheers
Terry MacDonald
Senior STIX Subject Matter Expert
SOLTRA | An FS-ISAC and DTCC Company
+61 (407) 203 206 |
From: [mailto:] On
Behalf Of Jason Keirstead
Sent: Tuesday, 27 October 2015 8:34 AM
To: Terry MacDonald <>
Cc:
Subject: Re: [cti-stix] Top-level Sighting Object from last meeting
Questions
- What is "Alternative_ID" ?
- Can you add to the proposal, which fields would be mandatory, and which optional? It's unclear to me. I presume a subset is mandatory, but not all.
-
Jason Keirstead
Product Architect, Security Intelligence, IBM Security Systems
www.ibm.com/security | www.securityintelligence.com
Without data, all you are is just another person with an opinion - Unknown
----- Original message -----
From: Terry MacDonald <>
Sent by: <>
To: "" <>
Cc:
Subject: [cti-stix] Top-level Sighting Object from last meeting
Date: Mon, Oct 26, 2015 2:00 PM
Hi All,
Given the flurry of discussions about features for STIX v2.0, it’s probably the right time to resend the top-level
STIX Sighting Object conversation starter out again. So here are the slides. Please feel free to comment/feedback/complain/call me names.
Please note – the strawman UML model is an abstraction based on the use of the Sighting Object only for Observable
Instances; it assumes that Indicators will similarly be restricted to only allowing Observable Patterns. The idea being that Indicators = ‘things to look for’ and Sightings = ‘things we’ve found’.
Cheers
Terry MacDonald
Senior STIX Subject Matter Expert
SOLTRA | An FS-ISAC and DTCC Company
+61 (407) 203 206 |
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