> We are working these three items into the next generation of
> the OASIS Technical Architecture.
I believe you meant to say "ebXML Technical Architecture"?
Joe
Joseph Chiusano
Associate
Booz Allen Hamilton
700 13th St. NW
Washington, DC 20005
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Hardin [mailto:]
> Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2005 10:29 AM
> To:
> Cc: 'Goran Zugic'; 'Hungenahally, Suresh'; 'David Webber
> (XML)'; 'Duane Nickull'; 'Jones, Steve';
> ; ;
> ; 'ebSOA OASIS TC';
> ; 'James Bryce Clark';
> ;
> Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Re: [ebsoa] RE: [fwsi] RE: [soa-rm] RE:
> [ebsoa] The real SOA challenge?
>
> That's what I believe the FERA-based SOA can do for us: Give
> us a stable model that defines each of the Information
> Models, the Semantics and the Run-Time SOA model.
>
> We are working these three items into the next generation of
> the OASIS Technical Architecture.
>
> You can view these three separate papers, generously donated
> by Goran, Vasco and George W. Brown (from Intel) at:
>
> http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/ebsoa/download.ph
> p/15263/SOA_CS_V0.1.doc
> http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/ebsoa/download.ph
> p/14407/SOA_IM_V0.1.doc
> http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/ebsoa/download.ph
> p/14406/Run-time_SOA_V0.1.doc
>
>
>
> Peter F Brown wrote:
> > Sounds good in theory, but who is going to agree the
> semantics to make
> > all that automatable? Who/what is going to build/enable the
> "federated
> > trust network"? the market? governments? standards
> organisations? To
> > use Goran's
> > #7 and #8, do we need a methodology (=policies, business practices,
> > industry-level agreements) to make it happen? and still
> remain agile
> > (avoiding the pitfalls of EDI)?
> >
> > Coming from the government sector, we are asking ourselves:
> do we have
> > a role in leading the way by mandating certain standards and
> > terminology (take for example the whole area of "e-enabling" public
> > procurement contracts, accounting for up to 20% of GDP in some
> > countries) for use in developing SOA-based services? Our
> interest, for
> > example, in a reference model, is precisely the ability to support
> > very diverse commercial and open source offers while keeping an
> > underlying coherent model in which they are all able to
> work together.
> >
> > OASIS has talked about developing a "common core" of themes and
> > messages that underpin the work of the different
> SOA-related TCs, and
> > it would seem that this thread has boot-strapped that
> process...where
> > can it go from here, rather than getting lost in posting across at
> > least 5 lists, possibly more to come....
> >
> > Peter
> >
> > -------------
> > Peter F Brown
> > ---
> > Chair, CEN eGovernment Focus Group
> > ---
> > Senior Expert
> > eGovernment - Legal, Organisational and International
> Issues Austrian
> > Federal Chancellery
> > ---
> > Co-Editor, OASIS SOA Reference Model
> > ---
> > Office:
> > E:
> > T: +43 1 53115 2595
> > W: www.bka.gv.at
> > Personal:
> > E: http://public.xdi.com/=Peter.Brown
> > W: www.XMLbyStealth.net
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: John Hardin [mailto:]
> > Sent: 16 November 2005 20:08
> > To: Goran Zugic
> > Cc: Hungenahally, Suresh; David Webber (XML); Duane Nickull; Jones,
> > Steve; ; ;
> > ; 'ebSOA OASIS TC';
> > ; James Bryce Clark;
> > ;
> > Subject: [soa-rm] Re: [ebsoa] RE: [fwsi] RE: [soa-rm] RE:
> [ebsoa] The
> > real SOA challenge?
> >
> > It's all very simple from my standpoint:
> >
> > Federated Trust Network
> > Federated Registry / Repository
> > Customized Executable Business Process which operate on those
> > federated networks.....
> >
> > Goran Zugic wrote:
> >
> >>David, I do not want to argue about the history. SOA (Web Services,
> >>ebXML, and many other SOA related concepts, standards,
> etc.) has not
> >>suddenly emerged from nowhere.
> >>
> >>Suresh, if I understand correctly your point, you think that the
> >>business process modeling, grouping and taxonomy of processes are
> >>important SOA enablers. I completely agree with you. It is very
> >>important but not the only aspect of the entire SOA
> picture. What I am
> >>also interested in is the SOA enterprise architecture and real
> >>alignment between the business and technology. No marketing
> hype but
> >>real
> >
> > stuff.
> >
> >>These are my questions. Not only for you but for everybody on this
> >>thread. I am just using these questions to continue with discussion.
> >>Do not worry I will provide my answers later and I hope
> that you will
> >>keep adding new questions as well. The more questions and the more
> >>discussions trying to form answers the better. I am sure we
> will not
> >>change the world but at least we can start to communicate
> more often
> >>and exchange ideas.
> >>
> >>1. How do we integrate business processes we model as services and
> >>technology? Here I mean a real automatic integration
> without army of
> >>developers working on the "SOA Enterprise Architecture" to
> implement
> >>processes just modeled or to implement changes just
> introduced. To me
> >>that kind of architecture is not SOA. That is old school which we
> >>shortly talked about in our history introduction.
> >>
> >>2. How do we make SOA agile? Again automatic implementation
> of changes
> >>without coding and both static and dynamic.
> >>
> >>3. How do we model and support business process semantics? Not just
> >>message exchanges and message routing.
> >>
> >>4. How do we use standards and support standard convergence?
> >>
> >>5. What is our SOA Reference Model?
> >>
> >>6. What is our complete SOA reference architecture?
> >>
> >>7. Do we have an SOA methodology and what the SOA methodology is all
> >
> > about?
> >
> >>
> >>8. What are our SOA best practices?
> >>
> >>9. What are the most critical SOA missing points and
> failures so far
> >>and how to fix them or not repeat them?
> >>
> >>10. What is the overall OASIS plan with regards to SOA, SOA TCs
> >>related work and their relationship?
> >>
> >>11. How can we start to work together and use each others
> "products"?
> >>
> >>12. How can we (TCs and OASIS) convince more leading vendors to be
> >>involved in the SOA specs development and start using SOA
> specs we are
> >>working on?
> >>
> >>
> >>I think that we should keep the entire original content of the
> >>messages for the completeness of the thread.
> >>
> >>Goran
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> *From:* Hungenahally, Suresh
> >
> > <mailto:>
> >
> >> *To:* David Webber (XML) <mailto:> ;
> >>
> <mailto:> ; Duane
> >> Nickull <mailto:> ; John Hardin
> >> <mailto:> ; Jones, Steve
> >> <mailto:>
> >> *Cc:*
> >> <mailto:> ;
>
> >> <mailto:> ;
> >> <mailto:> ;
>
> >> <mailto:> ;
> >>
> >> <mailto:> ;
> >> <mailto:> ;
> >>
> >> <mailto:> ;
> >>
> >> <mailto:>
> >> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 15, 2005 11:06 PM
> >> *Subject:* RE: [ebsoa] RE: [fwsi] RE: [soa-rm] RE:
> [ebsoa] The real
> >> SOA challenge?
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> I am new to the group. Please bear with me if I do not
> understand
> >> how this works.
> >>
> >> Agree 100% with David Webber, the key is in this point
> that David
> >> makes "So much for history - no need to dwell there -
> the challenge
> >> now is to bring *real business enabled XML-driven
> processes and SOA
> >> to fruition."*
> >> **
> >> Which means we need to clearly address:
> >>
> >> 1. SOA and processes integration by broad domains
> (Finance, Telco,
> >> Transport, Defence, Government etc.) We could use
> models such as the
> >> eTOM as a starting point.
> >> 2. Establish a standard grouping of processes within
> the business
> >> domains
> >> 3. Then look at which of these can be enabled using XML.
> >> 4. In Australia the DOMEDI group did similar work in
> the Transport
> >> domain (thouogh for a different purpose)
> >> 5. Finally a taxonomy of the business, processes,
> enablers and XML
> >> transactions
> >>
> >> Regards. Suresh
> >>
> >> ________________________________________________
> >>
> >> Dr. Suresh Hungenahally| *Capgemini* | Melbourne
> >> Senior Manager
> >> 477 Collin St. Melbourne 3000 Australia
> >> T. + 61 3 9613 3343 | M. + 61 402 408 816| F. + 61 3
> 9613 3333.
> >> E.
> >> <mailto:> |
> www.capgemini.com
> >> <http://www.capgemini.com>
> >>
> >> *Join the Collaborative Business Experience*
> >> ________________________________________________________
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --
> >
> >> *From:* David Webber (XML) [mailto:]
> >> *Sent:* Wednesday, 16 November 2005 2:55 PM
> >> *To:*
> <mailto:>;
> >> Duane Nickull; John Hardin; Jones, Steve
> >> *Cc:* ; ;
> >> ; ;
> >> ; ;
> >> ;
> >> ;
> >> *Subject:* Re: [ebsoa] RE: [fwsi] RE: [soa-rm] RE:
> [ebsoa] The real
> >> SOA challenge?
> >>
> >> Goran,
> >>
> >> While I like what you say vis SOA here - I have to take
> you to task
> >> on history ; -)
> >>
> >> The ebXML foundation came out of the work of the XML/edi Group
> >> aligned with the work of CEFACT on ooEDI.
> >>
> >> It completely breaks the mold on EDI. Yes - things
> like ebMS are
> >> founded on EDI+ communications - but the core of the
> ebXMl stack -
> >> registry-centric XML-driven collaboration - and the
> notion of the
> >> "Fusion of Five" is designed to sweep away the old EDI
> practices.
> >> Unfortunately XML as implemented today is nothing more than a
> >> slightly better EDI. The whole XML revolution is yet
> to truely take
> >> hold.
> >>
> >> As for web services - this was a shameless grab by IBM
> and Microsoft
> >> - attempting to be first to market ahead of ebXML with
> concepts that
> >> in essence are nothing more than "real-time EDI" - with
> all the same
> >> strengths and weaknesses of the
> >> original real-time EDI implementations - just using XML and the
> >> internet instead of EDI and private networks.
> >>
> >> So much for history - no need to dwell there - the
> challenge now is
> >> to bring real business enabled XML-driven processes and SOA to
> >
> > fruition.
> >
> >>
> >> Cheers, DW
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> For example, Web Services are initiated with an idea of
> >> services introduced by Microsoft 6-7 years ago and
> this idea has
> >> been formed from distributed computing and component-based
> >> computing ideas and "learn on mistakes" lessons from many
> >> organizations in 80s and 90s; ebXML is mostly based
> on EDI ideas
> >> and "learn on mistakes" lessons, etc.
> >>
> >> This message contains information that may be privileged or
> >> confidential and is the property of the Capgemini Group. It is
> >> intended only for the person to whom it is addressed.
> If you are not
> >> the intended recipient, you are not authorized to read, print,
> >> retain, copy, disseminate, distribute, or use this
> message or any
> >> part thereof. If you receive this message in error,
> please notify
> >> the sender immediately and delete all copies of this message.
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > | john c hardin
> > | Chief Technology Officer
> > | http://www.maphin.net
> > | 606.598.7353 office
> > | 606.813.4316 cell
> > | mailto:
> > |
> > | Chair - OASIS ebSOA Technical Committee
> > | http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=ebsoa
> > |
> > |
> > | "The new electronic interdependence recreates the world in the
> > | image of a global village."
> > |
> > | Marshall McLuhan, "Gutenberg Galaxy", 1962
> >
> |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> | john c hardin
> | Chief Technology Officer
> | http://www.maphin.net
> | 606.598.7353 office
> | 606.813.4316 cell
> | mailto:
> |
> | Chair - OASIS ebSOA Technical Committee
> | http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=ebsoa
> |
> |
> | "The new electronic interdependence recreates the world in the
> | image of a global village."
> |
> | Marshall McLuhan, "Gutenberg Galaxy", 1962
> |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
