RE: [office-accessibility] FW: [office] merging nested tables with surrounding table

Okay, thanks for clarifying.

 

-Mike

 

Mike Paciello

Cell: 
+1.603.566.7713

 

From: Pete Brunet [mailto:] 

Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 10:04 AM
To: 

Cc: 

Subject: Re: 
[office-accessibility] FW: [office] merging nested tables with surrounding 
table

Mike, Lars is saying what I think 
everyone on the WG has already committed to. 

A nit in Lars text - he said, "Such tools only provide a 
limited navigational context."  This is because the only thing an AT can 
provide for structural orientation (besides row/col header info) is the row/col 
address - the addressing scheme defined for ODF subtables is the source of the 
problem. 

After the Monday WG meeting 
the action item for the WG was to find use cases where subtables are useful 
other than for when cells are split or merged. 

Pete 
Brunet
      
                      
                      
                      
 
IBM 
Accessibility Architecture and Development
11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, 
Austin, TX 78758
Voice: (512) 838-4594, TL 678-4594, Fax: (512) 
838-9666
Ionosphere: WS4G

  
  

    "Mike Paciello" 
      <> 
      
06/28/2007 05:33 AM 
      
        
        

          
            
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          [office-accessibility] FW: [office] 
            merging nested tables with surrounding 
      table

      
        
        

          
          

Folks -

I'm following this thread -- please note Lars Oppermann's 
latest request.
Pete -- is Lar's proposal in line with your 
recommendation?

- Mike 

Mike Paciello
Cell: 
+1.603.566.7713

-----Original Message-----
From: 
 [mailto:] 
Sent: Thursday, June 
28, 2007 4:25 AM
To: Andreas J. Guelzow
Cc: 

Subject: Re: [office] merging nested tables with 
surrounding table

The request from the accessibility SC is based on the 
finding, that 
nested tables are hard to use with A11Y tools. Such tools only 
provide a 
limited navigational context.

The specification allows for 
both, nested tables and row/colspans. In 
the case of a nested table, the 
specification also provides the 
is-subtable attribute, which merges the 
nested table with the 
surrounding cell.

This means, that implementors 
of editors currently have a choice of what 
kind of structure they generate 
when implementing a function like "split 
this cell" or "merge these two 
cells".

I think the request of the A11Y SC is mainly about providing 
guidance to 
implementors to prefer the use of col/rowspan for such 
functions. If 
subtables are preferred, the resulting documents are harder to 
use in an 
A11Y context.

So what I would propose for the specification 
is to state in the 
description of is-subtable, that using nested table 
structures may be 
problematic for non-visual renditions of the documents. 
Henceforth, 
col/rowspan should be used whenever appropriate to make the 
resulting 
document more accessible.

Cheers,
Lars

Andreas J. 
Guelzow wrote:
> On Wed, 2007-27-06 at 17:13 +0200, Thomas Zander 
wrote:
>> On Wednesday 27 June 2007 16:48:37 Andreas J Guelzow 
wrote:
>>> See above example. Failure to provide such support would 
complicate the
>>> description of that table.
>> To be sure 
we are talking about the same thing; the example you gave is 
>> 
naturally still possible using subtables.  I have not seen any 
suggestion

>> to remove that feature.
> 
> I understand 
the initial request of the accessibility sc to suggest
> exactly that. At 
least the argument made are applicable to any kind of
> subtable.
> 

> Andreas
>   
> 

-- 
Sun Microsystems 
               Lars Oppermann 
<>
Nagelsweg 55         
           Software Engineer
20097 Hamburg, 
Germany          Phone: +49 40 23646 
959
http://www.sun.com/             Fax:   
+49 40 23646 
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