Re: [office] Re: [office-accessibility] Re: [office] use cases for "is-subtable" attribute

Thank you Lars. We will have to try out some more samples but this seems to address our problem. 

Pete, Hiro, do you concur?

Rich

Rich Schwerdtfeger

Distinguished Engineer, SWG Accessibility Architect/Strategist

Chair, IBM Accessibility Architecture Review  Board

blog: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/schwer

Lars Oppermann <>

Lars Oppermann <> 

Sent by: 

07/10/2007 04:08 AM

To

Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS

cc

Dave Pawson <>, OASIS Office <>, 

Subject

Re: [office] Re: [office-accessibility] Re: [office] use cases for "is-subtable" attribute

Hi Rich,

Thanks for the explanation. I agree, that for the case shown in the 

document, implementing this via subtables leads to confusing cell 

addresses. This is because sub-tables were used to implement the 

_merging_ of cells. OpenOffic.org Writer indeed used to implement table 

cell merges like this. OpenOffice.org Calc did and does not. It uses 

number-rows-spanned.

Most of the subtable discussion right now is around the subdivision, 

partitioning or splitting of cells. Note that there is no user interface 

function in OpenOffice.org Calc to do this. The initial table grid 

represents the minimal partitioning. You can only merge cells, so if you 

want the effect of a split, you'd need to merge all other cells.

I think there is consensus about subtables being inappropriate for the 

representation of merged cells.

However, some feel that being able to partition a table cell by 

inserting a subtable and having this subtable's border be defined by the 

enclosing cell's border is useful too. Hence the suggestion to not 

generally depreciate the is-subtable attribute but to explicitly state 

in which circumstances it is deprecated, viz. to represent merged cells.

Bests,

Lars

Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote:

> Lars,

> 

> The bottom line is a blind user is navigating a spreadsheet and when you 

> drop in a subtable the reference to the cells does not match the 

> underlying header. Blind users use the grid structure and headings to 

> maintain a point of reference. When that is not consistent the user gets 

> lost. We ran into this problem working with freedom scientific and our 

> ODF 1.1 support by the Notes 8 Productivity Editors. The JAWS developer, 

> who is blind, got lost and asked that we correct the issue.

> 

> Please see section 3.3 of this document. It is pretty self explanatory. 

> Here you will see the use .B2.B1 under a row header of C1. The user is lost.

> 

> http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/office-accessibility/download.php/24546/ODF_Accessibility_Guidelines_26_5July2007.odt

> 

> Hope this answers your question.

> 

> Cheers,

> 

> Rich

> 

> Rich Schwerdtfeger

> Distinguished Engineer, SWG Accessibility Architect/Strategist

> Chair, IBM Accessibility Architecture Review Board

> blog: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/schwer

> Inactive hide details for "Dave Pawson" <>"Dave 

> Pawson" <>

> 

> 

>                         *"Dave Pawson" <>*

> 

>                         07/09/2007 12:23 PM

> 

> 		 

> 

> To

> 		 

> "Lars Oppermann" <>

> 

> cc

> 		 

> "OASIS Office" <>, 

> 

> 

> Subject

> 		 

> [office-accessibility] Re: [office] use cases for "is-subtable" attribute

> 

> 		 

> 

> 

> On 09/07/07, Lars Oppermann <> wrote:

>  > Hi Dave,

>  >

>  > Could you elaborate a bit more on the reasons why a nested table is a

>  > problem for access technology? From my (naive) point of view, it would

>  > appear somewhat more confusing to navigate a lot of spanned cells rather

>  > than entering a subtable.

> 

> Suggestion.

> 

> Find a friendly access technology user, perhaps a blind person?

> Ask them how table navigation works.

> 

> If you sit alongside them, they can guide you through table navigation.

> Better still, put on a blindfold and try it for yourself.

> cell spanning has been around for a while.

> sub-tables seems to be an ODF invention?

> 

> 

> Either believe the accessibility sub-committee or find out from an end user.

> I'm sure Peter or Rich can introduce you to an AT user if you ask nicely.

> 

> regards

> 

> 

> -- 

> Dave Pawson

> XSLT XSL-FO FAQ.

> http://www.dpawson.co.uk

> 

-- 

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