RE: [soa-rm-ra] interaction question [was: DM2 + SoaML]

Ken,

I am inclined to think that this exchange is highly related to the conversation that we were having last wensday about services interactions and orchestrations.

This is a question of whether we differentiate between "atomic" services, which are stateless and complete fairly quickly and "orchestrated" services (aka business processes), which support conversational semantics
 and can last for a very long period of time. 

In my mind, those are both types of services, but are sufficiently different, not only technologically, but design wise, that they can and should be discussed and defined differently.

I am for separating of real world effects - results - from  value exchanged between participants when a service is enacted - means.

 

From: Ken Laskey []

Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 9:18 AM

To:  RA

Subject: [soa-rm-ra] interaction question [was: DM2 + SoaML]

This is an exchange with Cory Casanave that is part of the DM2 and SoaML work.  Start from the bottom, as usual, and then consider the following.

Do we need to say more about service interactions where the real world effects can occur long after the passing of messages has completed?  I'm not an expert in the definition of transactions but I don't think of the example I give below (requesting a copy
 of an explanation of benefits and later paying a fee) as just one "classic" transaction.  If I don't pay the bill and it goes to collection and I dispute it on constitutional terms that get appealed to the Supreme Court, is that one transaction?  Assuming
 SOA services, when do interactions begin and end?

Ken

Begin forwarded message:

From:
Cory Casanave <>

Date:
November 21, 2009 11:43:57 PM EST

To:
Cory Casanave <>, "Laskey, Ken" <>

Cc:
"Dandashi, Fatma" <>, "Bock, Conrad" <>, Dave McDaniel <>

Subject:
RE: DM2 + SoaML

Ken,

Also, I think it should also be said that SoaML services may be long

lived (months or years), complex and multi directional.  I would expect

the final "months later" action or payment that was the satisfaction of

the service obligation to also be part of the service contract and real

world effects.

I think this would be the same in the Oasis RM.  True?

-Cory

-----Original Message-----

From: Cory Casanave 

Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 11:35 PM

To: 'Ken Laskey'

Cc: Dandashi, Fatma; Bock, Conrad; Dave McDaniel

Subject: RE: DM2 + SoaML

Ken,

Yes it does, or at least could - if modeled that way.  The value

exchanged is then an obligation for the future action.

-Cory

-----Original Message-----

From: Ken Laskey [mailto:]

Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 5:42 PM

To: Cory Casanave

Cc: Dandashi, Fatma; Bock, Conrad; Dave McDaniel

Subject: Re: DM2 + SoaML

Note, with respect to real world effect, these are (OASIS definition)  

the observable changes in the world that result from the interaction.   

The participants may find value in the real world effects -- it is  

likely if they were willing to engage in the interaction and the real  

world effects were sufficiently described so there weren't surprises.   

However, this is only "value exchanged between participants when a  

service is enacted" if you consider this value exchange to include all  

real world effects that may occur out of band later.  For example, I  

may request an explanation of benefits that will not be processed for  

several days.  After the request is processed, I will be billed a  

service charge and I will be expected to pay that service charge  

within some elapsed time.  The interaction set a process in motion   

that provides the explanation of benefits and a service payment but  

there are things that will occur after the interaction itself is long  

complete.

So, does the idea of value exchange cover from when the interaction is  

initiated to when all actions deriving from that interaction are  

complete, even if this is months later?

Ken

On Nov 21, 2009, at 3:12 PM, Cory Casanave wrote:

Also, on the definitional fragments in your document:

Collaboration:

- This word sense would be better: 1 : to work jointly with others or

together especially in an intellectual endeavor

- A collaboration in UML and SoaML specifies how participants will  

work

together for a purpose.

Real world effect - the real world effect in SoaML is the value

exchanged between participants when a service is enacted.

Port - the word sense is clearly not the one intended.  A port is an

interaction point.

---

However, I don't think the definition fragments or Webster's will  

get us

very far, we should be using the full definitions of the model  

concepts

from the specification and the examples which illustrate these.

-Cory

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