I guess bottom line – you never do anything just for the hell of
it. You monitor to use the data that you are collecting for managing
From:
[mailto:]
Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2011 12:37 PM
To:
Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] Management Model section after comments of this
week
No, I do not. I am monitoring two
events: time-event and result presence event. My management does not measure
anything, may be somebody else does, but is it not my business.
-----Original Message-----
From: Lublinsky, Boris <>
To: <>;
<>;
<>;
<>
Sent: Sat, Apr 2, 2011 5:24 pm
Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] Management Model section after comments of this week
You realize that in your example you are MEASURING deadline
From:
[mailto:]
Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2011 10:58 AM
To: ; ;
Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] Management Model section after comments of this
week
If we do not manage measurements, many unrelated things will be
managed. Once, a guy who crolled under the street-light off the street was
asked what he did; he responded that when he walked before he lost his watches;
then guy was asked why he was looking in this spot since he probably
lost the watches in the street and the guy said, "Because here is more
light and I can see better"
Its reverse: we do not manage measurements – we measure to manage
Yes, we can measure to better manage but we also can manage w/o
measurement: command with a deadline, when deadline comes - the result must be
in place; if the result is not there - death ( as the deadline stated), then
another command, and so on
- Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: Lublinsky, Boris <>
To:
<>;
<>;
<>;
<>
Sent: Sat, Apr 2, 2011 4:32 pm
Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] Management Model section after comments of this week
Its reverse we do not manage measurements – we measure to manage
From:
[mailto:]
Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2011 5:59 AM
To: ; ;
Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] Management Model section after comments of this
week
I agree with Ken - w/o monitoring "you don’t have the information to do the other manageability".
Monitoring, obviously, includes measurement. However, talking about management
of measurement is, IMO, is a too low level for RAF.
BTW, we have many historical and industrial examples where
management had and has happened w/o monitoring and measurement. Another
question is how good such management is.
- Micahel
-----Original Message-----
From: Lublinsky, Boris <>
To: Ken Laskey <>; 'Lublinsky, Boris'
<>;
<>;
<>
Sent: Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:22 pm
Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] Management Model section after comments of this week
I do not think so
I think manageability is a feature, while monitoring is the way
of achieving it
From: Ken Laskey [mailto:]
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 3:20 PM
To: 'Lublinsky, Boris'; ;
Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] Management Model section after comments of this
week
Is there a management capability that applies to the existence and
adequacy of monitoring? That is what I had in mind.
Ken
From: Lublinsky, Boris [mailto:]
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 3:57 PM
To: Laskey, Ken; ; ;
Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] Management Model section after comments of this
week
Monitoring is a means – you can’t manage what you do not measure
From: Ken Laskey [mailto:]
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 2:20 PM
To: ;
;
Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] Management Model section after comments of this
week
I think the point is monitoring is a required
manageability. Otherwise, you don’t have the information to do the other
manageability.
Ken
From:
[mailto:]
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 12:03 PM
To: Laskey, Ken; ;
Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] Management Model section after comments of this
week
Now is my tern to follow the discusstion and figure out what is
sold ( and whome to).
Will come back with my comments (if any) later. At the mean time,
I can only point that means cannot drive the subject: monitoring cannot drive management - it has to be the other
way around
- Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Laskey <>
To: 'Lublinsky, Boris' <>; ;
Sent: Fri, Apr 1, 2011 4:00 am
Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] Management Model section after comments of this week
Sold!
From: Lublinsky, Boris [mailto:]
Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 10:59 PM
To: Laskey, Ken; 'Lublinsky, Boris'; ;
Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] Management Model section after comments of this
week
Actually this brings one more manageability, that Michael does
not have – usage manageability and metering. I will buy this one
From: Ken Laskey [mailto:]
Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 9:57 PM
To: 'Lublinsky, Boris'; ;
Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] Management Model section after comments of this
week
I concede on the example but I’m still inclined to think
monitoring needs to be broader than invocation events.
Too tired to be more creative.
Ken
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Kenneth Laskey
MITRE Corporation, M/S
H305
phone: 703-983-7934
7515 Colshire
Drive
fax: 703-983-1379
McLean VA 22102-7508
From: Lublinsky, Boris [mailto:]
Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 10:52 PM
To: Laskey, Ken; ; ;
Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] Management Model section after comments of this
week
Ken,
Michael already has network management, that will react at you
situation number 1. So I am still not buying events thingy
From: Ken Laskey [mailto:]
Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 9:45 PM
To: ;
;
Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] Management Model section after comments of this
week
1.
I think events have to be more than invocations. A service
consuming a lot of bandwidth may be an event that requires a response from
management. Deciding the response likely falls under other management but the
monitoring itself is needed. If everything relates to an invocation, then
maybe service invocation is sufficient, but I don’t think you want to go there.
I’d stick with monitoring.
2.
As you list things below to fall under Combination or
Composability, the list becomes too diverse and has no focus for what is really
being managed. Everything requires some degree of management and when we
decide something needs to specifically be called out, it needs to be clear why
the SOA ecosystem requires something beyond traditional management.
3.
I think all aspects of performance should be in one place.
Otherwise, it seems like you’re splitting hair to break some out and not
others.
Ken
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Kenneth Laskey
MITRE Corporation, M/S
H305
phone: 703-983-7934
7515 Colshire Drive
fax: 703-983-1379
McLean VA 22102-7508
From:
[mailto:]
Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 7:44 AM
To: ;
Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] Management Model section after comments of this
week
Boris,
I think that our task is not to set a status of
"disagree" but to find a solution to resolve the disagreement.
1. About
Event Manageability. It seems to me that "service invocation
manageability" might work because I certainly do not want to manage events
that may be even outside of SOA ecosystem. Also, I do distinguish (despite of
EDA vision) between the event and reporting of this event. A consideration I
use is this: if nobody (in given realm) listens to/monitors the event, this
does not mean that the event has not happened; one event may cause another
event - a sad example: an earthquake causes a tsunami - and, if we
discard the initial event as non-existed but we recognise the caused event, we
have to deal with things without reasons, out of the blue, which is not natural
and unacceptable to me.
So, an events selection manageability is a sort of a view inside
and outside the SOA ecosystem for the service invocation triggers.
2. I do respect IBM’s viewpoint but
they proofed they are not very fast with changes and they still take SOA
service as a Web Service in several of their even modern applications and
papers while others (e.g. Dr. Marc Fiammante) are quite in synch with what we do in OASIS.
So, a service, even a composite or aggregate service depends only
on functionality it needs from others. Considering an explicit contracts and a
possibility of the trusted realm, a service (and its implementation like a
process) may not and do not need to know who actually provides required
functionality.
By Combination or Composability
Management I mean (but may be did not use proper words to articulate) a
management of service capabilities to be used in the combinations or to combine
others for providing solution for common task. This, particularly, includes:
special relationship between business services and Data Services / Data
Access Layer, enforcement of policies related to the granularity of interfaces,
management of information stores/repositories for meta-data, management of the
processes and procedures – development and run-time – that result in new
service combinations (which may include as integration as testing aspects), and
so on. I hope, you’ve got the picture. Configuration management may also take
place among others in this domain but, IMO, it is certainly not the major
one.
3. The last one – management
of business performances – do require and use SLA and SLA management but the
letter is not always a visible part of the former. This is why I put them
separately: the SLA management can still be provisioned at many different
levels (including pure technical ones) while management of business
performances may be more laid around business KPI.
What do you think?
- Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: Lublinsky, Boris <>
To:
<>;
<>;
<>
Sent: Thu, Mar 31, 2011 12:25 am
Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] Management Model section after comments of this week
Do you see events manageability as service invocation
manageability? I do not think I see it this way
On everything else,
Let’s see we agree to disagree
What you call composability I call dependence – see IBM’s
service model – a service can have both interfaces and dependencies
For me also, business performance requires SLA
From:
[mailto:]
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2011 5:18 PM
To: ;
Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] Management Model section after comments of this
week
Boris, at a glance:
·
Event Monitoring Manageability is mandatory
IMO because it is not about notifications but about managing
selection of events that trigger the services.
·
I do not understand "Dependency
manageability" because service do not depend on other services; instead,
they depend on functionality of an arbitrary trusted provider (IBM Dynamic
Process Edition allowed having a 'basket' of potential providers where the
process picked up the actual one when needed on the fly 9not a discovery
mechanism); no end-points were configured up-front). This is not a programmatic
dependency, which many would read into.
·
Combination or Composability Management
is about managing combinations of services that might be realised w/ or
w/o configuration, i.e. via design (composition) or orchestration
(aggregation), by both service provider and consumer. The fact that existing
BPM tools require configuration does not mean that they are the only possible
ways of doing combinations. Also, do not forget about business domain where a
service combination may requires just a new organisational chart :-)
·
Business Performance and Service Level
Agreement are very different things, e.g. the former may have monetary
expression while the latter - pure technical expression. Also, the best
technical expressions (measurements and matrix) do not necessary lead to the
best monetary expressions.
- Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: Lublinsky, Boris <>
To:
<>;
<>
Sent: Wed, Mar 30, 2011 5:58 pm
Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] Management Model section after comments of this week
Here is my manageability proposal:
·
Lifecycle Manageability
·
Configuration manageability
o Dependency
manageability
·
Policies Manageability
·
Contracts manageability
·
Business Performance manageability
o SLA
Manageability
Event Monitoring Manageability is really about reporting and
should not be there
From:
[mailto:]
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2011 5:52 AM
To:
Subject: [soa-rm-ra] Management Model section after comments of this
week
Folks,
I have incorporated all comments and chnages into attached
document. In some places, I have repeated the text (in different font) just to
save and show the comments that I responeded insted but didn't change the text.
I am not sure what tactics we prefer now - to go through all left
comments together in the meeting or for me to resolve each comment with
particular author (in some cases I disagree with the comment, however).
Cheers,
- Michael
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