I agree with Ken - w/o monitoring "you don’t have the information to do the other manageability". Monitoring, obviously, includes measurement. However, talking about management of measurement is, IMO, is a too low level for RAF.
BTW, we have many historical and industrial examples where management had and has happened w/o monitoring and measurement. Another question is how good such management is.
- Micahel
-----Original Message-----
From: Lublinsky, Boris <>
To: Ken Laskey <>; 'Lublinsky, Boris' <>; <>; <>
Sent: Fri, Apr 1, 2011 9:22 pm
Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] Management Model section after comments of this week
I do not think so
I think manageability is a feature, while monitoring is the way
of achieving it
From: Ken Laskey
[mailto:]
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 3:20 PM
To: 'Lublinsky, Boris'; ;
Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] Management Model section after comments of this
week
Is there a management capability that applies to the existence
and adequacy of monitoring? That is what I had in mind.
Ken
From: Lublinsky, Boris
[mailto:]
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 3:57 PM
To: Laskey, Ken; ; ;
Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] Management Model section after comments of this
week
Monitoring is a means – you
can’t manage what you do not measure
From: Ken Laskey [mailto:]
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 2:20 PM
To: ; ;
Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] Management Model section after comments of this
week
I think the point is
monitoring is a required manageability. Otherwise, you don’t have the
information to do the other manageability.
Ken
From: [mailto:]
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 12:03 PM
To: Laskey, Ken; ;
Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] Management Model section after comments of this
week
Now is my tern to follow the
discusstion and figure out what is sold ( and whome to).
Will come back with my comments
(if any) later. At the mean time, I can only point that means cannot drive the
subject: monitoring cannot drive management - it has to be the other way around
- Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Laskey <>
To: 'Lublinsky, Boris' <>; ;
Sent: Fri, Apr 1, 2011 4:00 am
Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] Management Model section after comments of this week
Sold!
From: Lublinsky, Boris [mailto:]
Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 10:59 PM
To: Laskey, Ken; 'Lublinsky, Boris'; ;
Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] Management Model section after comments of this week
Actually this brings one more manageability, that Michael does not have – usage manageability and metering. I will buy this one
From: Ken Laskey [mailto:]
Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 9:57 PM
To: 'Lublinsky, Boris'; ;
Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] Management Model section after comments of this week
I concede on the example but I’m still inclined to think monitoring needs to be broader than invocation events.
Too tired to be more creative.
Ken
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Kenneth Laskey
MITRE Corporation, M/S H305 phone: 703-983-7934
7515 Colshire Drive fax: 703-983-1379
McLean VA 22102-7508
From: Lublinsky, Boris [mailto:]
Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 10:52 PM
To: Laskey, Ken; ; ;
Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] Management Model section after comments of this week
Ken,
Michael already has network management, that will react at you situation number 1. So I am still not buying events thingy
From: Ken Laskey [mailto:]
Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 9:45 PM
To: ; ;
Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] Management Model section after comments of this week
1. I think events have to be more than invocations. A service consuming a lot of bandwidth may be an event that requires a response from management. Deciding the response likely falls under other management but the monitoring itself is needed. If everything relates to an invocation, then maybe service invocation is sufficient, but I don’t think you want to go there. I’d stick with monitoring.
2. As you list things below to fall under Combination or Composability, the list becomes too diverse and has no focus for what is really being managed. Everything requires some degree of management and when we decide something needs to specifically be called out, it needs to be clear why the SOA ecosystem requires something beyond traditional management.
3. I think all aspects of performance should be in one place. Otherwise, it seems like you’re splitting hair to break some out and not others.
Ken
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Kenneth Laskey
MITRE Corporation, M/S H305 phone: 703-983-7934
7515 Colshire Drive fax: 703-983-1379
McLean VA 22102-7508
From: [mailto:]
Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 7:44 AM
To: ;
Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] Management Model section after comments of this week
Boris,
I think that our task is not to set a status of "disagree" but to find a solution to resolve the disagreement.
1. About Event Manageability. It seems to me that "service invocation manageability" might work because I certainly do not want to manage events that may be even outside of SOA ecosystem. Also, I do distinguish (despite of EDA vision) between the event and reporting of this event. A consideration I use is this: if nobody (in given realm) listens to/monitors the event, this does not mean that the event has not happened; one event may cause another event - a sad example: an earthquake causes a tsunami - and, if we discard the initial event as non-existed but we recognise the caused event, we have to deal with things without reasons, out of the blue, which is not natural and unacceptable to me.
So, an events selection manageability is a sort of a view inside and outside the SOA ecosystem for the service invocation triggers.
2. I do respect IBM’s viewpoint but they proofed they are not very fast with changes and they still take SOA service as a Web Service in several of their even modern applications and papers while others (e.g. Dr. Marc Fiammante) are quite in synch with what we do in OASIS.
So, a service, even a composite or aggregate service depends only on functionality it needs from others. Considering an explicit contracts and a possibility of the trusted realm, a service (and its implementation like a process) may not and do not need to know who actually provides required functionality.
By Combination or Composability Management I mean (but may be did not use proper words to articulate) a management of service capabilities to be used in the combinations or to combine others for providing solution for common task. This, particularly, includes: special relationship between business services and Data Services / Data Access Layer, enforcement of policies related to the granularity of interfaces, management of information stores/repositories for meta-data, management of the processes and procedures – development and run-time – that result in new service combinations (which may include as integration as testing aspects), and so on. I hope, you’ve got the picture. Configuration management may also take place among others in this domain but, IMO, it is certainly not the major one.
3. The last one – management of business performances – do require and use SLA and SLA management but the letter is not always a visible part of the former. This is why I put them separately: the SLA management can still be provisioned at many different levels (including pure technical ones) while management of business performances may be more laid around business KPI.
What do you think?
- Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: Lublinsky, Boris <>
To: <>; <>; <>
Sent: Thu, Mar 31, 2011 12:25 am
Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] Management Model section after comments of this week
Do you see events manageability as service invocation manageability? I do not think I see it this way
On everything else,
Let’s see we agree to disagree
What you call composability I call dependence – see IBM’s service model – a service can have both interfaces and dependencies
For me also, business performance requires SLA
From: [mailto:]
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2011 5:18 PM
To: ;
Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] Management Model section after comments of this week
Boris, at a glance:
· Event Monitoring Manageability is mandatory IMO because it is not about notifications but about managing selection of events that trigger the services.
· I do not understand "Dependency manageability" because service do not depend on other services; instead, they depend on functionality of an arbitrary trusted provider (IBM Dynamic Process Edition allowed having a 'basket' of potential providers where the process picked up the actual one when needed on the fly 9not a discovery mechanism); no end-points were configured up-front). This is not a programmatic dependency, which many would read into.
· Combination or Composability Management is about managing combinations of services that might be realised w/ or w/o configuration, i.e. via design (composition) or orchestration (aggregation), by both service provider and consumer. The fact that existing BPM tools require configuration does not mean that they are the only possible ways of doing combinations. Also, do not forget about business domain where a service combination may requires just a new organisational chart :-)
· Business Performance and Service Level Agreement are very different things, e.g. the former may have monetary expression while the latter - pure technical expression. Also, the best technical expressions (measurements and matrix) do not necessary lead to the best monetary expressions.
- Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: Lublinsky, Boris <>
To: <>; <>
Sent: Wed, Mar 30, 2011 5:58 pm
Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] Management Model section after comments of this week
Here is my manageability proposal:
· Lifecycle Manageability
· Configuration manageability
o Dependency manageability
· Policies Manageability
· Contracts manageability
· Business Performance manageability
o SLA Manageability
Event Monitoring Manageability is really about reporting and should not be there
From: [mailto:]
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2011 5:52 AM
To:
Subject: [soa-rm-ra] Management Model section after comments of this week
Folks,
I have incorporated all comments and chnages into attached document. In some places, I have repeated the text (in different font) just to save and show the comments that I responeded insted but didn't change the text.
I am not sure what tactics we prefer now - to go through all left comments together in the meeting or for me to resolve each comment with particular author (in some cases I disagree with the comment, however).
Cheers,
- Michael
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