RE: [soa-rm] RE: Act versus Object versus...both?

From
Chiusano Joseph <>
Date
2005-12-08T16:26:59+00:00
ID
Thread
RE: [soa-rm] RE: Act versus Object versus...both?
Just to clarify, the credit for the language (static vs. dynamic) belongs 
to Wes, not me. Credit where it's due....

 

Joe

 

Joseph Chiusano

Associate

Booz Allen Hamilton

 

700 13th St. NW

Suite 1100

Washington, DC 20005

O: 202-508-6514  

C: 202-251-0731

Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com

 

  

  
  From: Bashioum, Christopher D 
  [mailto:] 
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 
  11:24 AM
To: Chiusano Joseph; 
  
Subject: RE: [soa-rm] RE: Act versus 
  Object versus...both?

  

  

  

  
<Quote>

  
Is it 
  fair to say the thing is the static view and the action the dynamic 
  one?

  
</Quote>

  
 

  
Yup 
  - I also like the language you used.  

  
    

    
    From: Chiusano Joseph 
    [mailto:] 
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 
    2005 11:19 AM
To: 
Subject: 
    RE: [soa-rm] RE: Act versus Object versus...both?

    

    

    
<Quote>

    
Is 
    it fair to say the thing is the static view and the action the dynamic 
    one?

    
</Quote>

    
 

    
Yes - I like 
that.

    
 

    
Joe

    
 

    
Joseph Chiusano

    
Associate

    
Booz Allen Hamilton

    
 

    

    
700 13th St. NW

    
Suite 1100

    
Washington, DC 20005

    
O: 202-508-6514  

    
C: 202-251-0731

    

    
Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com

    
 

    
      

      
      From:  
      [mailto:] 
Sent: Thursday, December 
      08, 2005 11:17 AM
To: ; Metz Rebekah; 
      Chiusano Joseph; ; 
      
Subject: RE: [soa-rm] RE: Act versus 
      Object versus...both?

      

      

      
The 
      notion of duality for a service is 
      nice.

      
 

      
Is 
      it fair to say the thing is the static view and the action the dynamic 
      one?

      
 

      
Wes

      
 

      
 

      
-----Original 
      Message-----
From: 
      Bashioum, Christopher D [mailto:]
Sent: December 8, 2005 11:11 
      AM
To: Metz Rebekah; 
      Chiusano Joseph; Laskey, Ken; 
Subject: [soa-rm] RE: Act versus 
      Object versus...both?

      
 

      
Wow 
      - that was a mouthful!  ; )

      
 

      
So I 
      think you said that its ok as long as we all agree that a service is 
      both a thing and an action - is that correct?

      
 

      

      
      

      
From: Metz Rebekah 
      [mailto:] 
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 
      10:26 AM
To: Bashioum, 
      Christopher D; Chiusano Joseph; Laskey, Ken; 
      
Subject: Act versus Object 
      versus...both?

      
The 
      phrasing Chris selected prompted something for me…let me see if I can put 
      words to it.  After the discussions yesterday, I spent some time last 
      night reading linguistic research to try and better understand what about 
      the relationship between noun and verb forms of ‘service’ are sticking 
      points for me.  As I suspected; it has to with the implications about 
      the relationships between these lexical forms.  What was most 
      interesting was to realize the variety of aspects to be considered.  
      However, I think that I found what makes me want to tread careful and 
      clearly understand and distinguish between service as a noun and service 
      as a verb.  

      
 

      
In 
      addition, the phrasing you selected suggested that there are two active 
      portions of the ‘service scenario’:

      
1)       
      That 
      ‘of bringing a 
      desired capability to bear’

      
2)       
      That 
      of the capability itself

      
 

      
I’m 
      looking right now at the first active portion only.  I think we 
      already recognize the distinction between the two in wd-10.  But this 
      served as a reminder to me.

      
 

      
Essentially, when 
      using the nominalized form of an active verb like ‘to serve’ in a 
      sentence; an abstract noun performs most of the work.  Nominalization 
      can also permit the elision of the subject and object of a verb. 
      Therefore, we can write about a process or action and yet not mention who 
      is involved.  This is part of the sticking point for me when it comes 
      to a reference model in which we’re trying to unambiguously define key 
      concepts – because we’re using terminology that permits us to 
      unintentionally cloud the concepts when we are seeking 
      clarity.

      
 

      
Harrumph.  
      To me this still wasn’t completely satisfying.  
      

      
 

      
So I 
      dug a bit further and discovered that there are many ‘types’ of 
      nominalizations, including ‘episodic nominalizations.’  
        An episodic nominalization takes an active process and 
      conceives it as a noun.  So far so good, for service as both noun and 
      verb.  However, here’s where I found some interesting information 
      about the intuition of language that is captured by these different 
      forms.  Although quite similar, these two forms represent a different 
      semantics which conceptually develop.  In an episodic nominalization, 
      the conception is no longer viewed as a process but rather as a single 
      episode (i.e. only as the sum rather than the sum of its parts).  Yes 
      this starts to get into cognitive psychology and linguistics ( and I 
      apologize to those who just want to know what does the word service mean 
      within the context of SOA but bear with me).  
      

      
 

      
Where I got to is 
      that yes, we may actually be talking about the same thing but from 
      different angles.  What I’m recognizing is that those angles come 
      with specific inferences and assumptions that stem from language itself 
      that we may not be explicitly aware of and which set up 
      confusion.

      
 

      
So 
      what am I saying? That the text in the draft works well to recognize that 
      the term service(noun) unifies several related concepts – and we do it 
      justice to recognize those interrelated concepts.  Using the 
      terminology above, they’re conceptualized into a single episode.  If 
      we are clear about that, then I’ll accept that a service can be intended 
      as either.  

      
 

      
(Now 
      you all know how I spent my evening)

      
Rebekah

      
 

      
Rebekah 
      Metz

      
Associate

      
Booz Allen 
      Hamilton

      
Voice:  
      (703) 377-1471

      
Fax:     (703) 
      902-3457

      
 

      

      
      

      
From: Bashioum, 
      Christopher D [mailto:] 
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 
      9:52 AM
To: 
      Chiusano Joseph; 
      
Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Proposal: 
      Reorganization of SOA-RM Draft for Better 

      
 

      
Thanks - that was 
      helpful.

      
 

      
That 
      being the case, the RM concept of a service maps to a concrete "thing" 
      called a service, that performs the action of bringing a desired 
      capability to bear when invoked in the context of an SOA - or at least an 
      RM conformant SOA.  

      
 

      
How's that for a 
      beltway insider?

      
 

      
 

      
 

      

      
      

      
From: 
      Chiusano Joseph 
      [mailto:] 
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 
      9:41 AM
To: 
      
Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Proposal: 
      Reorganization of SOA-RM Draft for Better 

      
Please see 
      comments below, marked with [JMC].

      
 

      
Joe

      
 

      
Joseph 
      Chiusano

      
Associate

      
Booz Allen 
      Hamilton

      
 

      
700 13th St. 
      NW

      
Suite 
      1100

      
Washington, 
      DC 20005

      
O: 
      202-508-6514  
      

      
C: 
      202-251-0731

      
Visit us online@ 
      http://www.boozallen.com

      
 

      

      
 

      

      
      

      
From: Bashioum, 
      Christopher D [mailto:] 
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 
      9:31 AM
To: 
      Chiusano Joseph; 
      
Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Proposal: 
      Reorganization of SOA-RM Draft for Better 

      
Does that mean 
      that all the elements in the concept map are only concepts - none of them 
      translate into objects or actions (or any other concrete 
      thing)?   

      
 

      
[JMC] They 
      translate into concrete things when an implementation is created that 
      conforms to the reference model (or an existing implementation is mapped 
      to it).

      
 

      
I thought one of 
      the purposes of a RM was to identify and give a language to the basic 
      elements of the thing being modeled.  I.e., and SOA will have all the 
      elements that are identified in the RM.  

      
 

      
[JMC] A SOA 
      *implementation* may have concrete elements that map to the abstract 
      elements (concepts) that are identified in the RM.

      
 

      
I think Ken's 
      description is still the best one,  that "a service is a means to 
      bring a capability to bear in an SOA context".   In this case, 
      it is still a noun (or a thing) (or at least I think so, my wife is the 
      English major - not me)

      
 

      
[JMC] It is a 
      noun, as well as an action (alluding to my prior recent post on this). So 
      in comparison, a political compaign (sorry, I live in Washington DC;) can be thought of as a means to 
      potentially bring a candidate into elected political office (using very 
      loose wording here), while "to campaign" is the action that is associated 
      with that noun. If one had a reference model for campaigns, it would 
      contain concepts such as "candidate", "policitical party", "regions" 
      (perhaps the region(s) of the country that their campaign would cover - a 
      gubernatorial campaign would cover one state, a presidential campaign all 
      states), etc. In order to campaign (the action), one would leverage the 
      campaign reference model as a means to guide them in their action of 
      campaigning.

      
 

      
Joe

      

      
 

      

      
      

      
From: 
      Chiusano Joseph 
      [mailto:] 
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 
      6:58 AM
To: 
      
Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Proposal: 
      Reorganization of SOA-RM Draft for Better 

      

      
I know we're trying to avoid "+1"'s as much as 
      possible on this list, so I will put it into words: I completely agree 
      with Duane on all his points just below. 
      

      
 

      
Duane, I'm glad 
      you've started your guide to concept maps - hopefully in time this will 
      help the situation. We have used concept maps for the DRM as 
      well.

      
 

      
Joe

      
 

      

      
      

      
From: Duane Nickull 
      [mailto:]
Sent: Thu 12/8/2005 1:40 
      AM
To: Metz Rebekah; 
      Bashioum, Christopher D; 
Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Proposal: 
      Reorganization of SOA-RM Draft for Better 

      
I believe that 
      the problem, with is largely due to the fact there is no normative 
      reference for how to interpret concept maps.  In this case, a service 
      is neither an action nor an object.  It is imply an abstract 
      concept.

      
 

      
D

      
 

      
*******************************
Adobe 
      Systems, Inc. - http://www.adobe.com
Vice Chair - 
      UN/CEFACT  http://www.uncefact.org/
Chair - OASIS SOA Reference Model 
      Technical Committee
Personal Blog - http://technoracle.blogspot.com/
******************************* 
      

      
 

      

      
      

      
From: Metz Rebekah 
      [mailto:] 
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 
      7:18 PM
To: Bashioum, 
      Christopher D; 
Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Proposal: 
      Reorganization of SOA-RM Draft for Better 

      
 

      

      

      
      

      
From: Bashioum, 
      Christopher D [mailto:] 
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 
      5:06 PM
To: Metz Rebekah; 
      
Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Proposal: 
      Reorganization of SOA-RM Draft for Better 

      
 

      
Rebekah,

      
 

      
what about the 
      potential of an act?   

      

      
 

      
[->] 
      The potential of service is an offer.  

      
 

      

      
I have a problem 
      with the following

      
 

      
<Snip>

      
The actual 
      invocation and performance of the capability is the service; i.e. the 
      action.  

      
</Snip>

      
 

      
if I understand 
      what you are saying here, it would imply that a service is not a service 
      until it is actually performing an action.  During the time that it 
      is "waiting" to perform an action it is not a service, nor is it after it 
      has completed the action it was created to do.  
      

      
 

      

      
[->] 
      yes, you are right.  That is exactly what I’m implying.  The 
      service isn’t performing the action, the implementation of the action 
      is.  The service is the performance.

      

      
 

      
 

      
In Duane's 
      diagram, the service exists independent of the interaction.  However, 
      the interaction is what causes the real-world effect.  
      

      
 

      
I'm not sure I 
      buy the other statement that a service is an act as opposed to an 
      object.  Isn't it an object (in that it exists) who's purpose is to 
      perform an act?

      

      
[->] 
      So I’ll ask a question in return.  Let’s assume the statement is 
      true.  If a service exists as an object that is independent of the 
      capability who’s purpose it is to perform; what differentiates the service 
      from the capability?  

      
 

      

      
  For that 
      matter, is the capability what is actually providing the "action" and the 
      service is the means to access that action?

      

      
[->] 
      From this perspective, what differentiates the service from the service 
      access point?

      

      
 

      

      
[->] 
      My point is that the conceptualization of service as an object doesn’t 
      provide resolution to these questions.  It is for this reason that I 
      started examining service as a verb rather than a noun.  From that 
      perspective, the concepts and the relationships between them 
      clarified.

      
 

      
Rebekah

      

      
 

      

      
      

      
From: Metz Rebekah 
      [mailto:] 
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 
      4:37 PM
To: 
      
Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Proposal: 
      Reorganization of SOA-RM Draft for Better 

      
Gosh – if this 
      email came through in some weird format for everyone else, I am terribly 
      sorry about the wacky formatting of this email thread.  Not sure if 
      everyone saw it as I did, but at least my outlook client puked 
      =)

      
 

      
Uh-oh.  We 
      seem to be starting to head back to the service as an object as opposed to 
      an act.  I still do not believe that a service is an ‘object.’ 
        In fact, I believe that assumption has caused much of the 
      difficulty in figuring out what a service actually is.  
      

      
 

      
What is invoked 
      is a capability, consistent with the execution context and so to produce 
      real world effects.  The actual invocation and performance of the 
      capability is the service; i.e. the action.  Hence I maintain that 
      visibility, interaction and effect are the interrelated concepts often 
      (yet confusingly) referred to with a shorthand nomenclature of 
      ‘service.’

      
 

      
As far as roles 
      go, the very essence of the word service is the recognition that 
      <someone> does <something> for <someone else>.  I 
      would agree that any other specification of this generalization (uh…isn’t 
      that an ontology) belongs in something other than the RM.  
      

      
 

      
Rebekah

      
 

      
Rebekah Metz

      
Associate

      
Booz Allen 
      Hamilton

      
Voice:  (703) 
      377-1471

      
Fax:     (703) 
      902-3457

      
 

      

      

      
      

      
From: Ken Laskey 
      [mailto:] 
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 4:19 
      PM
To: Metz Rebekah
Cc: Jones, Steve G; ; 
      ; ; ; 
      ; ; 
      ; ; 
      
Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Proposal: Reorganization 
      of SOA-RM Draft for Better 

      
 

      
inline 
      

      
 

      
On Dec 7, 2005, 
      at 4:00 PM, Metz Rebekah wrote: 

      

      
 

      
Comments inline… 
      

      
 

      
From: Ken Laskey 
      [mailto:] 

      
Sent: Wednesday, 
      December 07, 2005 3:43 PM 

      
To: Jones, Steve 
      G 

      
Cc: 
      ; ; ; 
      ; ; 
      ; ; 
      ;  

      
Subject: Re: 
      [soa-rm] Proposal: Reorganization of SOA-RM Draft for Better 
      

      
  
      

      
If I invoke a 
      service, I am a service consumer. It does not matter if I invoke the 
      service on my own initiative or am told to do it (through a targeted 
      instruction or as part of a more complex set of instructions), I am still 
      the service consumer. 

      
  
      

      
[->] Agreed. 
      

      
  
      

      
I could glibly 
      say that if I "provide" a service, I'm a service provider, but I fear 
      things are not that simple. Is the entity that created the service its 
      provider, or the one who maintains it, or the one who hosts it, or the one 
      who pays for it, or ...? 

      
[->] I see 
      this being a question of ‘what are the roles’ versus ‘who plays the 
      roles’.   At first pass, it seems right that we recognize the 
      roles @ the RM level and leave the details of determining the best way to 
      decide how to assign some entity into that role to the RA. 
      

      
  
      

      

      
I think it is 
      easy to start naming roles but difficult to stop, and the roles will get 
      more use-specific. 

      

      
 

      
Luckily, from the 
      RM standpoint, we don't care. 

      
[->] or do we 
      just delegate =) 

      

      
 

      
... to someone 
      who has no choice but to care ;-) 

      

      
To be used within 
      the context of SOA, the service must be visible, must be able to take part 
      in an interaction 

      
[->] Here it 
      sounds like the service is an active player in an interaction.  Isn’t 
      it that the service consumer and provider interact (as specified…? 
      

      

      
 

      
Isn't the service 
      an active player? I invoke it to get its real world effect, so it 
      certainly sounds like it does something. 

      

      
 

      
(as specified by 
      the established execution context), and must produce a real world effect 
      (which I assume may in some circumstances be null). It has been "provided" 
      but we don't care how or by whom. 

      
  
      

      
So, in summary, 
      there's a lot of muddy water but sometimes we can avoid playing in it. :-) 
      

      
[->] Or we can 
      draw a circle around it and leave that to the RA =) 

      
  
      

      

      
... at which 
      point you initially choose RA cases that you can more cleanly defined. You 
      eventually get to the tougher ones, but we should learn to ride a bicycle 
      before we get a motorcycle (unless Duane has a different perspective) 
      

      

      
 

      
Ken 
      

      
[->] Rebekah 
      

      
 

      

      
Ken 
      

      

      
 

      
  
      

      
If I make a 
      service available for someone to invoke (and here I would say that "make 
      available" 

      
On Dec 7, 2005, 
      at 4:47 AM, Jones, Steve G wrote: 

      

      
  
      

      
  
      

      
To add some mud 
      into the water… 

      
  
      

      
Many Bus 
      architectures do “enrichment” of messages between consumer and producer, 
      including the invocation of other services to perform that enrichment (e.g 
      stock quote returns current price, enrichment provides the last ten days 
      closing price).  They may also do calculations that result in the 
      non-connection or “empty” return from the service (e.g. if you call for 
      “last five minutes trades” after the market has closed… its an empty set). 
       So while I agree that the service consumer is key it’s sometimes 
      hard to identify the true consumer and the true producer of a service 
      within a virtualised bus. 

      
  
      

      
Steve 
      

      
  
      

      
  
      

      
  
      

      
From: 
       [mailto:] 
      

      
Sent: 06 December 
      2005 19:09 

      
To: 
      ; ; ; 
      ; ; ; 
      ;  

      
Cc: 
       

      
Subject: RE: 
      [soa-rm] Proposal: Reorganization of SOA-RM Draft for Better 
      

      
  
      

      
I agree with Ken. 
      

      
  
      

      
The service 
      consumer is the key concept that indicates the entity that invoked the 
      service in the first place. 

      
  
      

      
A brokering 
      service or service actor is merely a middle-man. 

      
  
      

      
Wes 
      

      
-----Original 
      Message----- 

      
From: Ken Laskey 
      [mailto:] 

      
Sent: December 6, 
      2005 2:02 PM 

      
To: 
      ; ; ; 
      ; ; ; 
       

      
Cc: 
       

      
Subject: RE: 
      [soa-rm] Proposal: Reorganization of SOA-RM Draft for Better 
      

      
  
      

      
I could argue 
      that a broker consumes the service on someone else's behalf.  In 
      reality, service actor seems too nondescriptive because either the 
      consumer or the provider can be thought of as an actor. 
      

      
  
      

      
Ken 
      

      
  
      

      
At 01:45 PM 
      12/6/2005,  wrote: 

      
  
      

      
I hate to stir 
      things up a bit, but can you change the service consumer term to service 
      actor? 

      
Since in the case 
      of brokering the service actor is not consuming but brokering a request to 
      another service. 

      
The broker 
      service can be a service actor upon the service but might not really 
      consume any part of the service since it is a pass through. 
      

      
  
      

      
But I guess this 
      is a matter of opinion. 

      
  
      

      
- Dan 
      

      
-----Original 
      Message----- 

      
From: Ken Laskey 
      [ mailto:] 

      
Sent: Tuesday, 
      December 06, 2005 10:39 AM 

      
To: Duane 
      Nickull; Goran Zugic; Matt MacKenzie; MATHEWS, Tim; Sally St. Amand; 
       

      
Cc: 
       

      
  
      

      
Subject: RE: 
      [soa-rm] Proposal: Reorganization of SOA-RM Draft for Better 
      

      
  
      

      
I think we need 
      to add some words to the RM to capture this discussion.  We cover 
      part of this in the beginning of Section 3.2.1 but need to be more 
      specific that: 

      
  
      

      
- a service 
      consumer can be a human or a software agent; 

      
  
      

      
- a service 
      consumer can invoke any number of services (including a single service in 
      isolation) and can chain the output of some services to act as the input 
      of others; 

      
  
      

      
- from the 
      perspective of a given service, the occurrence of such chaining would not 
      be visible; 

      
  
      

      
- the service 
      consumer can be implementing a business process; 

      
  
      

      
- the specific of 
      a business process do not change the basic SOA concepts as described in 
      the RM; however, the specific architecture that one designs and implements 
      will reflect the business process and make use of specific service 
      instances that corresponds to the real world effects that the business 
      process hopes to realize. 

      
  
      

      
Now that said, 
      and in full appreciation that we agreed earlier that mechanisms which 
      combine services (e.g. choreography, orchestration) are out of scope, is 
      it sufficient for words, such as those suggested above, to be included 
      somewhere within the current discussion or do we need to pull it out into 
      a subsection on its own?  As an example of the former, we tried to 
      deal with loose-coupling and coarse-grained with words at the end of 
      Section 2.1. 

      
  
      

      
Ken 
      

      
At 12:23 PM 
      12/6/2005, Duane Nickull wrote: 

      
  
      

      
Goran: 
      

      
  
      

      
I slightly 
      disagree with your assertions, probably based on semantics.  For a 
      service to "participate" in a process, it would have to be aware of the 
      process (which many will not be).  A better way to depict this may be 
      to state "services may be aggregated and used by processes" and "processes 
      may be represented/exposed as services".  There are really no limits 
      to the number of layers that can be present.  Attached is a UML CVD 
      depicting such. 

      
  
      

      
A key rationale 
      of why process is not part of SOA is that services cannot see 
      process.  They are not aware of whether they are being called as part 
      of a process vs. as an individual service.  If the "s" part of SOA 
      cannot see or touch that, it cannot be part of the RM. 

      
  
      

      
The chicken and 
      egg discussion you bring forward is a requirement for those building 
      services to strongly consider the business process when designing their 
      service infrastructure.  Accordingly, it is not really part of the RM 
      for SOA yet I agree that it is a very important consideration. 
      

      
  
      

      
For your messages 
      to get to the list, you must join as a "applicant" rather than an 
      "observer" as per OASIS process. 

      
  
      

      
Duane 
      

      
  
      

      
******************************* 
      

      
Adobe Systems, 
      Inc. - http://www.adobe.com 
      

      
Vice 
      Chair - UN/CEFACT  http://www.uncefact.org/ 
      

      
Chair - OASIS SOA 
      Reference Model Technical Committee 

      
Personal Blog - 
      http://technoracle.blogspot.com/ 

      
******************************* 
      

      
  
      

      
  
      

      
From: Goran Zugic 
      [ mailto:] 

      
Sent: Monday, 
      December 05, 2005 8:47 PM 

      
To: Duane 
      Nickull; Matt MacKenzie; MATHEWS, Tim; Sally St. Amand; 
       

      
Cc: 
       

      
Subject: Re: 
      [soa-rm] Proposal: Reorganization of SOA-RM Draft for Better 
      

      
  
      

      
Duane, 
      

      
  
      

      
Thanks for the 
      response. Yes I would like to see the PPT. I hope you do not mind if I add 
      few more thoughts related to services and business processes: 
      

      
  
      

      
Services 
      participate in a business process to add some value to it. They can be 
      governed and evaluated using business process metrics. One service can 
      participate in many business processes and provide value to each of them 
      according to the context within that process. As far as SOA is concerned 
      it is as important to know what the service does, how it can be 
      discovered, contacted, invoked, executed, etc. as it is to be able to use 
      it within the process context, measure it and assess its value from the 
      business process requirements point of view. SOA needs to avoid typical 
      new technology chicken and egg syndrome, e.g. companies not producing 
      services because there are no service friendly process definitions to use 
      them and not having SOA friendly process definitions because there are no 
      services to use. Services do not have to know if they will be involved in 
      the process upfront, they will be contacted on demand according to the 
      process script that is in effect, and they will be contacted, checked if 
      available, passed the arguments, collected the response and according to 
      their procedure left alone to wait for another call. The process execution 
      engine however needs to invoke the service according to both service 
      specific information and the process specific information. 
      

      
  
      

      
Having just the 
      service specific information in a model covers only one part of the 
      picture and I think it is fine as long as that model is a pure service 
      model. However I find it difficult to understand that the SOA RM TC model 
      is a SOA reference model when it does not include other concepts of SOA. 
      Unfortunately it seems that we cannot get to the point where we could 
      agree on a minimal set of supported SOA concepts by a model to be the 
      SOA 
      RM.  We do not 
      have to and I do not want to argue with you or anybody else in SOA RM TC. 
      I am just trying to see how our works can fit together in a most efficient 
      way. We obviously need more time to better understand each others thoughts 
      and ideas and I strongly believe that a constructive respectable 
      discussion is helpful for everybody. 

      
  
      

      
By the way, do 
      you know what I am supposed to do to get my messages to the SOA RM list. 
      In spite of that I am the SOA RM TC observer I get a faliure notice 
      whenever I send a note to the SOA RM.  

      
  
      

      
Goran 
      

      
  
      

      
----- Original 
      Message ----- 

      
From: Duane 
      Nickull 

      
To: Matt 
      MacKenzie ;  ; MATHEWS, Tim ; Sally St. Amand ; 
       

      
Cc: 
       

      
Sent: Monday, 
      December 05, 2005 5:02 PM 

      
Subject: RE: 
      [soa-rm] Proposal: Reorganization of SOA-RM Draft for Better 
      

      
  
      

      
Goran: 
      

      
  
      

      
The service layer 
      enables the process layer over top of it, however during runtime, services 
      do not know if they are part of a process or being called individually (it 
      would generally be a bad idea to try to maintain the overall state of a 
      process within each service, although it could be done).  For maximum 
      repurposing of services, it would be better to have the service as a 
      simple slave to the processes that may use it.  

      
  
      

      
Accordingly, we 
      made a decision that BPM, Orchestration, choreography is not a core part 
      of the RM for SOA.  We generally seem to agree that many SOA 
      implementations will include a layer of BPM over top.  We are only 
      addressing the SOA model, not the model for the underlying or overarching 
      layers. 

      
  
      

      
I have a PPT that 
      explains this in more detail if you are interested. 

      
  
      

      
  
      

      
Duane 
      

      
  
      

      
******************************* 
      

      
Adobe Systems, 
      Inc. - http://www.adobe.com 
      

      
Vice 
      Chair - UN/CEFACT  http://www.uncefact.org/ 
      

      
Chair - OASIS SOA 
      Reference Model Technical Committee 

      
Personal Blog - 
      http://technoracle.blogspot.com/ 

      
******************************* 
      

      
  
      

      
From: Matt 
      MacKenzie [ mailto:] 

      
Sent: Monday, 
      December 05, 2005 12:51 PM 

      
To: 
      ; MATHEWS, Tim; Sally St. Amand; 
       

      
Cc: 
       

      
Subject: RE: 
      [soa-rm] Proposal: Reorganization of SOA-RM Draft for Better 
      

      
  
      

      
Process 
      orientation is only one of multiple potential integration with service 
      oriented architecture.  SOA-RM is laying the foundation for durable 
      architecture based on the core concept of service orientation.  We 
      recognize that process oriented architecture is a natural fit with service 
      orientation...but so are things like event orientation. 
      

      
  
      

      
  
      

      
-matt 
      

      
  
      

      
From: 
       [ mailto:] 
      

      
Sent: Monday, 
      December 05, 2005 3:36 PM 

      
To: MATHEWS, Tim; 
      Matt MacKenzie; Sally St. Amand;  
      

      
Cc: 
       

      
Subject: Re: 
      [soa-rm] Proposal: Reorganization of SOA-RM Draft for Better 
      

      
  
      

      
I think that SOA 
      RM has done good job documenting well-known service related concepts and 
      defining some new ones. 

      
  
      

      
I do not see 
      other details besides service and service-related concept definitions in 
      the current SOA RM committee draft right now. I look forward to seeing the 
      completion of the model you are working on with the bottom-up approach. 
      

      
Business, 
      business processes and collaboration aspects of business are important to 
      address in the model what is not the case with the current content of the 
      SOA RM committee draft. By a business process I mean a generic business 
      process entity which has common components (activities, decisions, etc) 
      and relationships between them that can be used to model a business 
      process in any environment regardless of what business we support and 
      technology we use. I agree with Sally that a link between business 
      processes and services should be one of key requirements any SOA reference 
      model should try to meet. 

      
  
      

      
I am not sure 
      what SOA with services brings to business when the link between the 
      business processes and services and overall business process semantics in 
      the SOA context are not considered to be important aspects in a SOA-based 
      reference model. 

      
  
      

      
Goran 
      

      
-----Original 
      Message----- 

      
From: MATHEWS, 
      Tim [ mailto:] 

      
Sent: Monday, 
      December 5, 2005 12:34 PM 

      
To: 'Matt 
      MacKenzie', 'Sally St. Amand',  
      

      
Cc: 
       

      
Subject: RE: 
      [soa-rm] Proposal: Reorganization of SOA-RM Draft for Better 
      "Componentization" 

      
Matt - I am not 
      sure what point you are trying to make by this?  I agree with your 
      premise of a bottom up effort, as this was one of the operating 
      assumptions that was made from the beginning. 

      
  
      

      
But, I am 
      confident it is the business environment that is independent from the 
      reference model. 

      
  
      

      
TM 
      

      
  
      

      
From: Matt 
      MacKenzie [ mailto:] 

      
Sent: Monday, 
      December 05, 2005 11:58 AM 

      
To: Sally St. 
      Amand;  

      
Cc: 
       

      
Subject: RE: 
      [soa-rm] Proposal: Reorganization of SOA-RM Draft for Better 
      "Componentization" 

      
Sally, 
      

      
  
      

      
A reference model 
      actually needs to be a bottom up effort.  We leave the ever so 
      popular ?top-down? approach to folks like ebSOA J 

      
  
      

      
We?re creating a 
      vocabulary and general understanding of what I hope we can call a 
      discipline of computer science in the future.  This means, we need a 
      durable reference model that is not dependent on the current business 
      environment. 

      
  
      

      
-matt 
      

      
  
      

      
From: Sally St. 
      Amand [ mailto:] 

      
Sent: Monday, 
      December 05, 2005 10:19 AM 

      
To: 
       

      
Cc: 
       

      
Subject: Re: 
      [soa-rm] Proposal: Reorganization of SOA-RM Draft for Better 
      "Componentization" 

      
  
      

      
Frank 
      

      
  
      

      
This is in 
      response to your request on last week?s conference call, if anyone has 
      comments speak now. I also think that the recent comments on clarifying 
      sections are a reflection of my issues with the specification. 
      

      
  
      

      
I agree with the 
      majority of points made/described in ver 10. My issues are with what is 
      not in this draft. Based on Fig 1 the Refe! rence Model is guided by 
      Reference Architectures, Concrete Architectures, Profile & Related 
      Models. They in turn account for requirements, motivation & goals. 
      This is creating a Reference Model from the bottom up. I believe a 
      Reference Model should reflect a top down approach. 

      
  
      

      
  
      

      
The Reference 
      Model needs to reflect the environment, the strategy and the priorities of 
      the business/mission/collaboration.  This will impact the 
      construction of services. A service is a business task or activity that is 
      realized through technology. The draft does a good job of describing how 
      that realization happens. But it doesn?t provide a sufficient link between 
      processes and services. The draft makes the point that the central focus 
      of! SOA is the task of business function?getting something done. A 
      business process is made up of tasks and activities to achieve a goal 
      (getting something done). The concept of creating the service from the 
      tasks and activities in a process is important. For example, where on the 
      continuum of fine grained to coarse grained should a particular service 
      be; this will affect interaction, reusability. The relationship between 
      processes and services needs to be in the Reference Model. 
      

      
  
      

      
While I saw that 
      there is a note saying the glossary is still in flux, since one of the 
      objective of the Reference Model is a vocabulary, having less in the 
      glossary might be a better option. Is semantic integration a guiding 
      principle of SOA? 

      
  
      

      
With respect to 
      conformance there needs to be business results. That is an SOA should 
      provide demonstrable mission accomplishments, e.g. ROI, match a 
      competitors distribution channel. SOA is not a technology. Conformance 
      should provide operational accomplishments, these should be measurable. 
      

      
  
      

      
Sally 
      

      
  
      

      
  
      

      
!