I am not questioning whether the design makes sense. I was questioning the phrasing of the problem to demonstrate the
need for transient entities and I was looking for a convincing business scenario where the need for transient entities
is clear. As long as there is an alternative, fairly clean solution to the problem, the rationale would not be clear.
Eilon and I talked about the scenario when the customization call ended early today. We agreed that
- my solution made sense for the particular phrasing problem
- and refining the problem where the search results page
- actually is showing page fragments from each of the map services
- and the number of results is unbounded (e.g all map services are not part of a single hotel chain).
makes a good case for transient entities.
Ravi Konuru
Rich Thompson/Watson/IBM@IBMUS
Rich Thompson/Watson/IBM@IBMUS
06/12/2002 01:22 PM
To: ,
cc:
Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] Search results page, map services, transient entities.
It sounds like you are questioning whether the design proposed for the
Consumer's search result page makes sense. I would respond that not only
does it make sense, I have seen the equivalent on the web already (don't
remember where, but it was the basic scenario Eilon laid out). You are
basically there when you state that the search page could present a set of
clickable GIFs ... the question is where do these come from. Two basic
choices are that the Consumer prefetches them into a local cache and just
makes a connection to the search result record OR that for each result
record, the Consumer creates a transient entity at a Producer, sets the
configuration such that an appropriate GIF is generated and the Producer
includes whatever logic is needed to deal with clicks on the GIF. I would
argue that the architecture should not exclude either approach (both have
their advantages) and that the second approach is a good case where the
context known only by the Consumer is what dictates whether a persistent or
transient entity is appropriate.
Ravi
Konuru/Watson/IBM To: ,
@IBMUS cc:
Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] Search
06/12/2002 10:53 results page, map services, transient entities.
AM
I don't understand why transient entities are created in this scenario. Why
is the search results page creating the transient entities?
I can think of a case where the search results page provides a set of
clickable GIFs that correspond to the hotel services but NOT actually
create transient entities at the Producer. If the user actually clicks on
one of them, it is at that time the consumer requests the producer to
create an entity (transient or persistent) and then embeds the output of
the entity in its web page.
Am I missing something?
thanks,
Ravi Konuru
(Embedded image moved to file: pic28419.gif)Carsten Leue/Germany/IBM@IBMDE
(Embed (Embedded image moved to file: (Embedded image moved to file:
ded pic00419.gif) pic30879.gif)
image Carsten
moved Leue/Germa To: Eilon Reshef
to ny/IBM@IBM <>
file: DE cc: "'Alan Kropp'"
pic116 <>,
57.gif ,
) 06/12/2002
06:57 AM Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia]
[wsrp-wsia joint interfaces]
agenda for Tuesday 11 June
I think that this is a very good scenario where transient entities make
sense.
Best regards
Carsten Leue
-------
Dr. Carsten Leue
Dept.8288, IBM Laboratory B鐽lingen , Germany
Tel.: +49-7031-16-4603, Fax: +49-7031-16-4401
|---------+----------------------------->
| | Eilon Reshef |
| | <eilon.reshef@webc|
| | ollage.com> |
| | |
| | 06/11/2002 08:35 |
| | PM |
| | Please respond to |
| | Eilon Reshef |
| | |
|---------+----------------------------->
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| |
| To: "'Alan Kropp'" <>, ,
|
| cc: |
| Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda for
Tuesday 11 June |
| |
| |
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
Alan,
I think that one example scenario is a search results page, say for hotels,
that dynamically displays multiple maps - a map for each hotel found.
Assuming that maps are remote services, and assuming that the number of
results is dynamic, the Consumer needs to create multiple copies of the map
service. If we allow the Producer to determine the persistence state of
those maps, that would mean that someone will have to take care of the
lifetime of those maps. The Consumer can't, because the page may be gone
without the Consumer never knowing about it (the user closes the browser
window). The Producer can't, because it can't tell whether the Consumer has
stored a reference to those maps as part of a design-time description of a
user page.
Is that along the lines of what you were looking for?
Eilon
-----Original Message-----
From: Alan Kropp [mailto:]
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 2:18 PM
To: ''; ''
Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda for
Tuesday 11 June
I find that the question of a Consumer creating a persistent vs. a
transient
entity to be a little troubling.
Isn't the Consumer primarily interested in getting a handle to an
_entity_
(be that transient or persistent), and then using that handle to
direct
subsequent requests to?
Could we not consider persistence and transience to be entirely
Producer
concerns? I understand from the sequence in the spec (pp. 6-8) that
the
only supporting scenario for the Consumer calling
"createTransientEntity" is
out of an effort to maximize the efficiency of the conversation with
the
Producer. This is a worthy goal, of course, but the Producer should
advertise its interaction behavior in the meta-data, right?
Presumably the
Producer uses the meta-data to hint to the Consumer the way(s) the
Consumer
SHOULD structure invocation requests efficiently.
I'd love to see some more convincing scenarios to support pushing the
persistent/transient aspect of the conversation out to the Consumer.
Otherwise, I'd love even more to limit our specification to a single
"createEntity" call.
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: Carsten Leue [mailto:]
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 2:19 AM
To: Gil Tayar
Cc: thomas klein6; '';
''
Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda for
Tuesday 11 June
Gil -
1-3: the consumer MUST explicitly create entities (transient or
persistent). It can decide to create sessions explicitly if it wants
to
share them amongs entities, otherwise it can let the producer create
sessions on the fly.
4: the decision to have multiple entities per session is up to the
consumer
who make this choice based on the producer's metadata. e.g think of
portlets that form a shop together. These would want to share a
session
with each other. But the consumer could decide to have two shops of
the
same type on the same page. Then there would be two sessions and only
the
consumer could know what portlet shares what session.
5: The consumer should create a session before issuing a getFragment
call.
The entity is created whenever necessary.
6: A Session is a bucket that holds some data (physically on the
provider)
and times-out after a while. A transient entity is a remote portlet
that
does not store any data in a DB.
Hope that helped.
Best regards
Carsten Leue
-------
Dr. Carsten Leue
Dept.8288, IBM Laboratory B鐽lingen , Germany
Tel.: +49-7031-16-4603, Fax: +49-7031-16-4401
|---------+---------------------------->
| | Gil Tayar |
| | <Gil.Tayar@webcol|
| | lage.com> |
| | |
| | 06/11/2002 09:28 |
| | AM |
| | Please respond to|
| | Gil Tayar |
| | |
|---------+---------------------------->
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------|
|
|
| To: Carsten Leue/Germany/IBM@IBMDE
|
| cc: "''"
<>, "''"
<>, Thomas|
| Klein6/Germany/IBM@IBMDE
|
| Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces]
agenda
for Tuesday 11 June
|
|
|
|
|
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------|
Carsten, could you clarify some things for me?
1. If sessions and entities are orthogonal, what SHOULD the Consumer
do?
2. SHOULD it create a transient entity _and_ a session?
3. MUST it do so?
4. Who gets to decide whether there are multiple entities per session
or
multiple sessions per entities?
5. When SHOULD a Consumer create a session and when a transient
entity?
6. What _is_ a session, logically? What _is_ a transient entity?
Gil
-----Original Message-----
From: Carsten Leue [mailto:]
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 08:45
To: Alan Kropp
Cc: ''; ''; thomas
klein6
Subject: Re: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda for
Tuesday 11 June
Alan - some first thoughts
1. the general concept is that entities (transient or persistent) and
sessions are orthogonal. There might be mulitple entities per session
and
(at least for persistent entities) multiple sessions per entity. An
example
for the first case would be that entities share session data within
the
same user request. An example for the second case are portlets on a
common
page (group page) that are access simultaneously by multiple users.
A transient entity differs from a persistent entity in that its data
does
not persist and its lifecycle is coupled with the session life cycle.
2. Eilon pointed out in a comment to the interface proposal that
batch
processing is already part of SOAP. I was not aware of that and will
look
it up until the call.
Best regards
Carsten Leue
-------
Dr. Carsten Leue
Dept.8288, IBM Laboratory B鐽lingen , Germany
Tel.: +49-7031-16-4603, Fax: +49-7031-16-4401
|---------+---------------------------->
| | Alan Kropp |
| | <akropp@epicentri|
| | c.com> |
| | |
| | 06/11/2002 01:54 |
| | AM |
| | Please respond to|
| | Alan Kropp |
| | |
|---------+---------------------------->
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------|
|
|
| To: "''"
<>, "''"
<> |
| cc:
|
| Subject: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda
for
Tuesday 11 June
|
|
|
|
|
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------|
I think we'll have plenty of discussion around the merged document
Rich and
Carsten put together.
The two main issues I see that have arisen on the email lists are:
1. What is the difference between transient entities and sessions,
and is
there enough of a distinction to warrant including both in the
specification?
2. There are efficiency concerns around the use of arrays in the
method
signatures, basically to enable batched requests for network
efficiency.
Call-in numbers:
USA Toll Free Number: 877-718-0936
USA Toll Number: +1-712-923-6878
PARTICIPANT PASSCODE: 563151
Alan
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#### pic28419.gif has been removed from this note on June 12 2002 by Ravi Konuru
#### pic11657.gif has been removed from this note on June 12 2002 by Ravi Konuru
#### pic00419.gif has been removed from this note on June 12 2002 by Ravi Konuru
#### pic30879.gif has been removed from this note on June 12 2002 by Ravi Konuru
