Title: Message
Alan,
Comments below, with <ER>
I'll follow up with a related question in a subsequent
e-mail
Eilon
-----Original Message-----
From: Alan
Kropp [mailto:]
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002
3:05 PM
To: 'Eilon Reshef'; Alan Kropp; ;
Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint
interfaces] agenda for Tuesday 11 June
Hi
Eilon,
It
seems to me the Consumer still doesn't really need a say in how the Producer
implements the search service runtime model. It's true that if the
Producer creates all of these transient entities, there is the issue of when
it is "safe" to destroy them. Transient entities don't have an
inherent lifecycle, but the sessions which talk to them do...so, when
these sessions have timed out, the Producer is able to determine that a
transient entity is no longer a party to any active session. Would
it be valid to say that the Producer, at that point, may assume the
transient entity is stale and destroy it?
<ER> I
would think so </ER>
I guess this is a variation
on reference counting/GC that Java developers are already familiar with.
<ER>
yes, except that reference counting is possible in a closed environment,
whereas "guesswork" (i.e., timeouts ;-) is the option that will be used in
practice </ER>
I don't think it's unrealistic to expect the Producer to employ
intelligence like this to efficiently manage its entities.
<ER> I
would assume that transient entities would be implemented as or within
sessions, as you suggested so this would be taken care by the infrastructure
</ER>
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: Eilon Reshef
[mailto:]
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002
11:36 AM
To: 'Alan Kropp'; ;
Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia
joint interfaces] agenda for Tuesday 11 June
Alan,
I think that one example scenario is a search results page, say for
hotels, that dynamically displays multiple maps - a map for each hotel
found.
Assuming that maps are remote services, and assuming that the number
of results is dynamic, the Consumer needs to create multiple copies of the
map service. If we allow the Producer to determine the persistence state of
those maps, that would mean that someone will have to take care of the
lifetime of those maps. The Consumer can't, because the page may be gone
without the Consumer never knowing about it (the user closes the browser
window). The Producer can't, because it can't tell whether the Consumer has
stored a reference to those maps as part of a design-time description of a
user page.
Is that along the lines of what you were looking
for?
Eilon
-----Original Message-----
From: Alan Kropp
[mailto:]
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002
2:18 PM
To: '';
''
Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia]
[wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda for Tuesday 11
June
I find that the question of a Consumer creating a
persistent vs. a transient
entity to be a little
troubling.
Isn't the Consumer primarily interested in getting a
handle to an _entity_
(be that transient or
persistent), and then using that handle to direct
subsequent requests to?
Could we not consider persistence and transience to be
entirely Producer
concerns? I understand
from the sequence in the spec (pp. 6-8) that the
only supporting scenario for the Consumer calling
"createTransientEntity" is
out of an effort to
maximize the efficiency of the conversation with the
Producer. This is a worthy goal, of course, but the Producer
should
advertise its interaction behavior in the
meta-data, right? Presumably the
Producer
uses the meta-data to hint to the Consumer the way(s) the Consumer
SHOULD structure invocation requests efficiently.
I'd love to see some more convincing scenarios to support
pushing the
persistent/transient aspect of the
conversation out to the Consumer.
Otherwise, I'd
love even more to limit our specification to a single
"createEntity" call.
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From:
Carsten Leue [mailto:]
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 2:19 AM
To: Gil Tayar
Cc: thomas klein6;
'';
''
Subject: RE:
[wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda for
Tuesday 11 June
Gil -
1-3: the consumer MUST explicitly create entities
(transient or
persistent). It can decide to create
sessions explicitly if it wants to
share them
amongs entities, otherwise it can let the producer create
sessions on the fly.
4: the decision to
have multiple entities per session is up to the consumer
who make this choice based on the producer's metadata. e.g think
of
portlets that form a shop together. These would
want to share a session
with each other. But the
consumer could decide to have two shops of the
same type on the same page. Then there would be two sessions and
only the
consumer could know what portlet shares
what session.
5: The consumer should create a
session before issuing a getFragment call.
The
entity is created whenever necessary.
6: A Session
is a bucket that holds some data (physically on the provider)
and times-out after a while. A transient entity is a
remote portlet that
does not store any data in a
DB.
Hope that helped.
Best regards
Carsten Leue
-------
Dr. Carsten Leue
Dept.8288, IBM Laboratory B鐽lingen , Germany
Tel.: +49-7031-16-4603, Fax: +49-7031-16-4401
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for Tuesday 11
June
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Carsten, could you clarify some things for me?
1. If sessions and entities are orthogonal, what SHOULD
the Consumer do?
2. SHOULD it create a transient
entity _and_ a session?
3. MUST it do so?
4. Who gets to decide whether there are multiple entities
per session or
multiple sessions per
entities?
5. When SHOULD a Consumer create a
session and when a transient entity?
6. What _is_
a session, logically? What _is_ a transient entity?
Gil
-----Original Message-----
From:
Carsten Leue [mailto:]
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 08:45
To: Alan Kropp
Cc:
''; ''; thomas
klein6
Subject: Re: [wsrp] [wsia]
[wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda for
Tuesday 11
June
Alan - some first thoughts
1. the general concept is that entities (transient or
persistent) and
sessions are orthogonal. There
might be mulitple entities per session and
(at
least for persistent entities) multiple sessions per entity. An
example
for the first case would be that entities
share session data within the
same user
request. An example for the second case are portlets on a common
page (group page) that are access simultaneously by
multiple users.
A transient entity differs from a
persistent entity in that its data does
not
persist and its lifecycle is coupled with the session life cycle.
2. Eilon pointed out in a comment to the interface
proposal that batch
processing is already part of
SOAP. I was not aware of that and will look
it up
until the call.
Best regards
Carsten Leue
-------
Dr. Carsten Leue
Dept.8288, IBM Laboratory B鐽lingen , Germany
Tel.: +49-7031-16-4603, Fax: +49-7031-16-4401
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Kropp |
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01:54 |
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respond to|
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Kropp |
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Tuesday
11
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I think we'll have plenty of discussion around the merged
document Rich and
Carsten put together.
The two main issues I see that have arisen on the email
lists are:
1. What is the difference between transient entities
and sessions, and is
there enough of a distinction
to warrant including both in the
specification?
2. There are efficiency concerns around the use of
arrays in the method
signatures, basically to
enable batched requests for network efficiency.
Call-in numbers:
USA Toll
Free Number: 877-718-0936
USA Toll Number:
+1-712-923-6878
PARTICIPANT PASSCODE:
563151
Alan
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