All,
The
original problem with the statement "the paired codes, <bx/>+<ex/> and <bpt>+<ept>,
should be related via the rid attribute"
is that it is vague. It does not describe HOW they are
related, only that the 'rid' attribute is used in some way. From John's example
it is clear that they are related by setting the two 'rid' attributes to the
same value. The alternative is to set the 'rid' value to match the 'id' value of
the corresponding tag. I yield to those on the TC longer than I to determine the
original indent on how to use 'id' and 'rid'. The most important issue here is
to make it very clear how to relate the paired tags. Including an example, such
as John's, is essential to understanding.
The
'rid' attribute SHOULD HAVE BEEN
required for <bx>, <ex>,
<bpt>, and <ept> in XLIFF 1.0 because it is needed to refer
to the matching begin/end tag. This
change, however, is not fully
compatible with XLIFF 1.0 because some documents may not have the 'rid'
attribute, but I do not know how the matching pairs would be identified. Therefore, the XLIFF 1.1 schema cannot enforce 'rid'
without causing compatibility problems with older XLIFF 1.0 documents. I do not
feel it is necessary to enforce the 'rid' attribute. If the specification is
unambiguous, people will properly apply the 'id' and 'rid'
attributes.
The remaining question
is "Can the paired tags be matched by 'id' without using 'rid'?". In my opinion,
the answer should be "No". Providing two ways to do the same thing causes the
user to make an arbitrary decision. However, I realize that some may
already use 'id' instead of 'rid' because 'rid' is optional. Perhaps someone
with more experience can offer more
information.
In summary, here are
the three choices on how to relate paired
tags:
(1) 'rid' matches 'id'
... <bx id="b1" rid="e1"/> ... <ex id="e1"
rid="b1"/>
(2) 'rid' matches
'rid' ... <bx rid="1"/> ... <ex
rid="1"/>
(3) 'id' matches 'id'
... <bx id="1"/> ... <ex
id="1"/>
Comments:
This is the XLIFF 1.0
description for the 'id' and 'rid'
attributes:
"The
id attribute is used in many
elements, as a unique reference to the original corresponding code data or
format for the given element."
"The
rid attribute is used to link
different elements that are
related."
The XLIFF 1.0 description for <bx/>
adds:
"These paired elements are related via their rid
attributes."
It seems that the 'id' attribute was never
intended to be used to match pairs, but rather the 'rid' attribute was included
for that purpose. Therefore, choice (3) would be disqualified (although this was
the verbal consensus at the last conference call). John's concerns are addressed
by either choice (1) or choice (2). Choice (1) is better from a strict XML point
of view because the 'id' attribute identifies an element and the 'rid' refers to
a different element. In a DTD or schema, the 'id' attribute would be type ID and
'rid' would be REFID. The DTD would then enforce that 'rid' actually refers to
an existing element. However, the XLIFF 1.0 DTD does not define 'id' or 'rid' in
this way, and, in fact, 'id' does not even need to be unique. Choice (2) is less
complex and easier to implement than choice (1) given that 'id' may not be
unique.
Given this reasoning, I recommend that the
specification describe the use of 'rid' in <bx>, <ex>, <bpt>,
and <ept> as shown in choice (2), which is the same as John's
recommendation and Mark's agreement. Although it would be nice to make 'rid'
required, it is not essential. More important would be a way to enforce that the
'rid' values match correctly, that is, a <bx rid> matches with exactly one
<ex rid>. I do not know if this is possible with W3C XML
Schema.
Regards,
Doug Domeny
Software Analyst
Ektron,
Inc.
+1 603 594-0249 x212
http://www.ektron.com
-----Original Message-----
From: David Pooley
[mailto:]
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2003 6:29
AM
To:
Subject: RE: [xliff] Re:
XLIFF 1.1 Specification Working Draft 14 - RC5
I'm not
comfortable with this for the reasons outlined
below.
As I
understand it, <bx/> is a shortened way of writing
<bpt></bpt> and <ex/> is a shortened way of writing
<ept></ept>. Quite why we need these extra tags (saving
six characters per occurrence) is a little bit beyond me to start with.
However, <bpt> and <ept> are taken from the TMX
format where there is an attribute, "i" which links them together. This is a
required attribute in these tags.
In the specification, <bx> and <ex> as
described as "begin paired placeholder" and "end
paired placeholder" respectively. To me, this means
that each <bx/> must have a corresponding <ex>
and vice-versa. If this is the case then there must be a mandatory attribute
that links them together. However, under John's proposal, we are suggesting that the
<bx/> and <ex/> tags should be linked via a non-mandatory
attribute. We're are also suggesting linking them together using an attribute
which has a vague description and could be used for a variety of purposes
(including using it as a lookup device in the skeleton file), some of which
are references outside of the <trans-unit>.
Either the
rid becomes
mandatory for <bx/>, <ex/>, <bpt> and <ept> (and its
wording is changed to reflect its new status) or we agree to use the
id attribute. With John's example, it's still possible to
have the rid as optional and use it to reference in to the
skeleton:
Original
{This is
translatable text which is {/weight=+w1}bold, {/weight=+w3} italic and
bold{/weight=-w1}, and
italic.{/weight=-w3}}
Skeleton
{#TU id=18#
#CODE rid=19#{/weight=-w1}
#CODE rid=20#{/weight=+w3}
#CODE rid=21#{/weight=-w1}
#CODE rid=22#{//weight=-w3}
}
XLIFF
<trans-unit id="18">
<source>This is translatable text which is <bx id="1"
rid="19"/>bold, <bx id="2" rid="20"/>italic and bold<ex id="1"
rid="21"/>, and italic<ex id="2" rid="22"/>.</source>
</trans-unit>
David
Pooley
Software
Architect
SDL
International
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Levins
[mailto:]
Sent: 08 May 2003
10:21
To:
Cc:
Subject: RE: [xliff] Re: XLIFF 1.1
Specification Working Draft 14 - RC5
Hi John,
I
fully agree with your mail, it describes the usage we originally came up with,
which in essence means that 'id' attributes are for the general purpose of
linking information to a skeletal data while 'rid' attributes are used to
refer related information within an XLIFF document.
Regards,
Mark Levins
IBM Software Group,
Dublin
Software Laboratory,
Airways Industrial
Estate,
Cloghran,
Dublin 17,
Ireland.
Phone: +353 1 704 6676
IBM
Tie Line 166676
"John Reid"
<>
07/05/2003 23:36
To
<>, "<",
<>
cc
Subject
RE: [xliff] Re: XLIFF
1.1 Specification Working Draft 14 -
RC5
Hi Doug, Yves, et al,
Doug Domeny wrote:
>Replace "These paired
elements are related via their rid attributes" (occurs
>5 times)
with:
>
>These paired
elements are matched by setting their id attributes to the same
>value.
For example, <bx id="34"/> ... <ex id="34"/>
I think we are imposing a method on the XLIFF filters and a format on
the skeletons with this change. Suppose we have a file format with the
following text:
{This
is translatable text which is {/weight=+w1}bold, {/weight=+w3} italic and
bold{/weight=-w1}, and italic.{/weight=-w3}}
Here the codes are allowed to overlap.
I've used bold and italic for simplicity but this could be complicated with
more complex codes. The filter assigns each code a separate id because without
a lookup table of some sort the filter doesn't know that /weight=+w1 means
'bold'. It does recognize that weight=+w1 and weight=-w1 are paired. Also, the
developer of the filter did not want to regenerate codes that could as easily
be stored. Thus, the skeleton for this text may look as follows:
{#TU id=18#
#CODE id=19#{/weight=-w1}
#CODE
id=20#{/weight=+w3}
#CODE
id=21#{/weight=-w1}
#CODE
id=22#{//weight=-w3}
}
The <trans-unit> appears as
follows:
<trans-unit
id = "18">
<source>This is
translatable text which is <bx id="19" rid="1"/>bold, <bx id="20"
rid="2"/>italic and bold<ex id="21" rid="1"/>, and italic<ex
id="22" rid="2"/>.
</source>
</trans-unit>
Thus, the id attribute relates the codes in the skeleton to
the inline elements in the XLIFF. The rid attribute relates the paired codes
to each other.
If the
id must match between the the paired codes, the skeleton wouldn't store the
end codes and the postprocessor must generate those.
This is why I think that the paired
codes, <bx/>+<ex/> and <bpt>+<ept>, should be related
via the rid attribute. This gives the greatest freedom to the filter
writers.
--john
**********************************************************************
This
email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended
solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed.
If you have received this email in error please notify
the system
manager.
This footnote also confirms that this email message has been
swept
for the presence of computer
viruses.
**********************************************************************
