A friend of mine, a pianist, arranger and composer who also teaches
music at Leipzig's academy of music and theater, writes his compositions
in Finale [1] and exchanges them with other people as MusicXML. MusicXML
supports overlapping staff groups, as can be seen in example
41f-StaffGroups-Overlapping.xml on [2]. MusicXML's slurs are "composed"
of milestone elements, as can be seen in [3], adopting a popular method
to represent overlap in XML.
I don't have statistics about how many contemporary composers write
music conventionally on sheets or electronically with Finale etc., but I
guess that most of them use software nowadays. And this software more
likely than not has XML as an exchange or even as a native storage
format. And that XML interchange format is able to represent overlap.
Gerrit
[1] https://www.finalemusic.com/products/finale/
[2]
https://web.mit.edu/music21/doc/developerReference/musicxmlTest.html#multiple-parts-staves
[3]
https://www.w3.org/2021/06/musicxml40/musicxml-reference/examples/slur-element/
On 30.05.2022 20:29, Dimitre Novatchev wrote:
>
>
> On Sun, May 29, 2022 at 11:13 PM Imsieke, Gerrit, le-tex
> < <mailto:>> wrote:
>
> You can express or represent (I regard both terms as synonymous wrt the
> current discussion) such an overlap in XML, see for example how the
> Common Music Notation handles overlap in beams or slurs (search for
> "overlap" on [1]). It's just that you cannot express it using
> overlapping elements.
>
> [1] https://music-encoding.org/guidelines/v4/content/cmn.html
> <https://music-encoding.org/guidelines/v4/content/cmn.html>
>
>
> The fact is that no conductor in the world is using CMN, do they? :)
>
> Just the "old-fashioned", non-xml-based musical scores ...
>
> If "XML is one's language" and they have to conduct an orchestra, what
> are the chances they will use CMN and not the "old-fashioned",
> non-xml-based musical scores ?
> Does even a single such example exist?
>
> Luckily, no one has ever tried to represent a Venn diagram with XML...
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "If the only tool you have is a hammer, it is tempting to treat
> everything as if it were a nail"
> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_the_instrument
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_the_instrument>)
>
> To quote from this source:
>
> The notion of a /golden hammer,/ "a familiar technology or concept
> applied obsessively to many software problems", was introduced into
> information technology
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_technology> literature in
> 1998 as an anti-pattern <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-pattern>: a
> programming practice to be avoided.
>
> Software developer José M. Gilgado has written that the law is still
> relevant in the 21st century and is highly applicable to software
> development. Many times software developers, he observed, "tend to use
> the same known tools to do a completely new different project with new
> constraints". He blamed this on "the comfort zone
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comfort_zone> state where you don't
> change anything to avoid risk. The problem with using the same tools
> every time you can is that you don't have enough arguments to make a
> choice because you have nothing to compare to and is limiting your
> knowledge." The solution is "to keep looking for the best possible
> choice, even if we aren't very familiar with it".
>
>
> Cheers,
> Dimitre
>
>
>
> On 30.05.2022 05:55, Dimitre Novatchev wrote:
> > > > XML may not be good at representing concurrency (overlap
> just on
> > one-dimension -- time).
> > >
> > > Is this an example of concurrency?
> >
> > Concurrency is any overlap on the time axis.
> >
> > A good example is the scores used by the director of an orchestra.
> > Because of the concurrency of playing of the different groups of
> musical
> > instruments within an orchestra, their scores are printed not in one
> > continuous linear line, but on many parallel horizontal lines one
> below
> > the other as the musical durations of non-paused play of these
> different
> > instrumental groups overlap horizontally, where the
> horizontal axis from
> > left to write expresses the time.
> >
> > Say you have a violin and a clarinet. The violin plays a single
> tone in
> > the interval [t1, t2] and the clarinet plays another tone in the
> > interval [t3, t4]. And t1 < t3 < t2 < t4 or t3 < t1 < t4
> < t2.
> >
> > With XML one cannot represent such partial overlaps, but overlaps
> where
> > one of the durations completely contains the other (which is not
> > generally the rule in music), can be represented by two elements,
> the
> > second of which is contained in the scope of the first: t1 <= t3
> < t4 <=
> > t2 or t3 <= t1 < t2 <=t4
> >
> >
> > On Sun, May 29, 2022 at 12:08 PM Roger L Costello
> < <mailto:>
> > <mailto: <mailto:>>> wrote:
> >
> > Peter wrote:
> >
> > > overlap can be expressed but not represented
> >
> > I am not clear what you mean by "overlap". Is this an example of
> > overlap:
> >
> > Classroom1 is used for teaching math, science, and writing.
> > Classroom2 is used for teaching art, history, and writing.
> >
> > There is overlap between the topics taught in classroom1 and
> > classroom2 -- writing. Is that what you mean by "overlap"?
> >
> > If so, can't that be expressed in XML something like this:
> >
> > <Classrooms>
> > <Classroom1>
> > <ClassesTaught>
> > <Class>math</Class>
> > <Class>science</Class>
> > <Class>writing</Class>
> > </ClassesTaught>
> > </Classroom1>
> > <Classroom2>
> > <ClassesTaught>
> > <Class>art</Class>
> > <Class>history</Class>
> > <Class>writing</Class>
> > </ClassesTaught>
> > </Classroom2>
> > </Classrooms>
> >
> > Dimitre wrote:
> >
> > > XML may not be good at representing concurrency (overlap
> just on
> > one-dimension -- time).
> >
> > Is this an example of concurrency?
> >
> > During times 1 - 3 John Doe is driving from Boston to NYC and
> during
> > the same times Sally Smith is driving from LA to San Diego.
> >
> > Is that an example of what you mean? If so, can't that be
> expressed
> > in XML something like this:
> >
> > <DrivingTrips>
> > <Person>
> > <Name>John Doe</Name>
> > <Itinerary>
> > <Start>Boston</Start>
> > <End>NYC</End>
> > </Itinerary>
> > <DriveTimes>
> > <Time1/>
> > <Time2/>
> > <Time3/>
> > </DriveTimes>
> > </Person>
> > <Person>
> > <Name>Sally Smith</Name>
> > <Itinerary>
> > <Start>LA</Start>
> > <End>San Diego</End>
> > </Itinerary>
> > <DriveTimes>
> > <Time1/>
> > <Time2/>
> > <Time3/>
> > </DriveTimes>
> > </Person>
> > </DrivingTrips>
> >
> > Peter said:
> >
> > > CSV is better at expressing row-and-column type data.
> >
> > That might well be true, but it is possible to express
> > row-and-column concepts in XML. That is, the row-and-column
> concept
> > in not outside the realm of concepts expressible by the XML
> language.
> >
> > > Various forms of database are better at expressing other
> layouts
> > of atomic and relational data.
> >
> > Again, that might well be true but the concept of a table is
> > expressible in XML.
> >
> > Thank you Peter, Dimitre, and Gerrit but you haven't (yet)
> convinced
> > me that there are concepts that are outside the realm of concepts
> > expressible using the language called XML.
> >
> > A friend of mine is Chinese and today I asked her: "Are there
> > concepts that you can express in English that you cannot
> express in
> > Chinese?" She responded, "Yes, there are concepts in English for
> > which there is no equivalent in Chinese." (The reverse is
> also true
> > -- there are concepts that can be expressed in Chinese that
> cannot
> > be expressed in English.)
> >
> > Are there concepts in data language XYZ that cannot be
> expressed in
> > the data language we call XML? What are the boundaries of the
> > language we call XML, in terms of concepts that can be expressed?
> > How does the XML language bound (limit) ones thinking about data?
> >
> > /Roger
> >
>
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>
> --
> Cheers,
> Dimitre Novatchev
> ---------------------------------------
> Truly great madness cannot be achieved without significant intelligence.
> ---------------------------------------
> To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk
> -------------------------------------
> Never fight an inanimate object
> -------------------------------------
> To avoid situations in which you might make mistakes may be the
> biggest mistake of all
> ------------------------------------
> Quality means doing it right when no one is looking.
> -------------------------------------
> You've achieved success in your field when you don't know whether what
> you're doing is work or play
> -------------------------------------
> To achieve the impossible dream, try going to sleep.
> -------------------------------------
> Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.
> -------------------------------------
> Typing monkeys will write all Shakespeare's works in 200yrs.Will they
> write all patents, too? :)
> -------------------------------------
> Sanity is madness put to good use.
> -------------------------------------
> I finally figured out the only reason to be alive is to enjoy it.
