Hi,
it seems that this topic underlines a slightly different approach between
the two TCs. I've been not very involved in XRI TC, as my focus is more
on semantics - so please pardon me if I'm entering this
"inter-TC" thread from a pure XDI perspective.
I guess that the different viewpoints are due to the fact that XRI TC
focus is more on syntax, whereas XDI, in order to fulfill its goals,
needs also a very powerful semantic model. In particular, the capability
to "scare quote" a statement, that is, to find a way to express
beliefs of entities about other entities is a fundamental one in
intelligent systems (see for example belief in BDI model in software
agents,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDI_software_agent#Beliefs).
Personally, I think, this feature should be supported by XDI and the
proposed syntax is one of the most straightforward we can have. I also
understand this has a cost from a pure XRI perspective, as Les says,
aesthetics, and probably the need to explain to XRI users the difference
between the two options, but, making a balance between pros and cons, I
think it worths to be supported.
Thanks,
Giovanni
At 20.34 10/11/2008, Chasen, Les wrote:
I see this as two ways to say
the same thing. In both cases =Drummond is a cross reference to
@xpinion. In Drummond’s proposal I guess one of them
refers to =Drummond in scary quotes and the other doesn’t. Do we
really need that?
The original reason (and AFAICT the only reason) for this syntax was
aesthetics. I agree it is easier to read and type the more compact
syntax of @xpinion=Drummond. However, inventing a distinction
between the two cross references creates confusion.
From: Barnhill, William [USA]
[
mailto:]
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 2:14 PM
To: Chasen, Les; Giovanni Bartolomeo; Drummond Reed
Cc: OASIS - XDI TC; OASIS XRI TC
Subject: RE: [xdi] Global Cross-Reference Proposal
So here's a use case that's near and dear to me:
Let's say someone has a site that is an XRI/XDI enabled version of
Epinions.com, @xpinions. @xpinions wants to make an assertion about
=Drummond that they control, not that =Drummond controls. Let's say that
Drummond is communitive =>
@xpionions*(=Drummond)/$is/(+communitive) [Btw, <-
correct? shorter way of stating?]
Let's say they also want to reference/pt to a statement that =Drummond
says he's open =>
@xpinions=Drummond/$is/(+open)
Does the above make sense and show need for both? Also is syntax correct
for v3, and is there a more concise way to express it?
Thanks,
=Bill.Barnhill
From: Chasen, Les
[
mailto:]
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 2:03 PM
To: Giovanni Bartolomeo; Drummond Reed
Cc: OASIS - XDI TC; Barnhill, William [USA]; OASIS XRI TC
Subject: RE: [xdi] Global Cross-Reference Proposal
I don't see the importance here. You are introducing a semantic
"scare quote" difference between the current "local"
cross references and the proposed "global" cross
references. I find that distinction so very nuanced that it is
confusing. I don't understand why we want to introduce this into
XRI.
From: Giovanni Bartolomeo
[
mailto:]
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 1:01 PM
To: Drummond Reed
Cc: 'OASIS - XDI TC'; Barnhill, William [USA]; Chasen, Les; 'OASIS
XRI TC'
Subject: RE: [xdi] Global Cross-Reference Proposal
Thanks Drummond, it clarifies indeed! Wow, that's a very powerful
mechanism!
And should also answer Bill's question:
"If the following is now a reference to the global =Drummond:
@cordance=drummond
<== global scope – NOT ALLOWED IN XRI 2.0
then how would @cordance make a statement 'about'
=Drummond?"
is my understanding correct?
Thanks!
Giovanni
At 18.13 10/11/2008, Drummond Reed wrote:
Giovanni,
I forgot to cc the XDI TC list on my reply to Les this morning. I'm
including it below just to clarify the question you asked. Note that
your
point about the XDI statement being reflected only applies to XRIs in an
XDI
context (which is of course what the XDI TC is focused on). In XRI 3.0
the
semantics are more universal, i.e., what does an XRI cross-reference mean
in
_any_ context.
Best,
=Drummond
********** DRUMMOND'S EARLIER REPLY TO LES ***************
Les, you're right that in both @cordance=drummond and
@cordance*(=drummond),
you can infer a semantic relationship between the subsegments (@cordance
and
=drummond) and their global XRIs.
However, in the latter case, I think the only interpretation you can
infer
is that the entity being referred to by *(=drummond) is being referred to
IN
A DIFFERENT CONTEXT than =drummond.
The rationale is the same as the example I gave in natural language on
the
wiki page, which is when quotes are used in English to explicitly
communicate that a particular word/phrase is being used in
"quotes",
specifically what are called "scare quotes" (thanks to John
Bradley for
educating me about that phrase). There's a good Wikipedia article on
scare
quotes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scare_quote
The example I used on the wiki page was:
Boeing
"international" employment contract signature date
In that phrase, the only thing an English reader can interpret about
the
word "international" is that it is being used in a different
context than
the normal use of the word. I think it's safe to say that in order
to
understand what context applies (and therefore what the word really means
in
that context), you have to look either at the immediate context of the
full
sentence, or the full paragraph, or the full context in which it appears.
Which is exactly the meaning of "local context symbols" in
XRI.
Therefore the following line up nicely:
Boeing
"international" employment contract signature date
@boeing*(+international)+employment$contract$sig$d
...and...
Boeing international
employment contract signature date
@boeing+international+employment$contract$sig$d
I don't think there's any more semantics that can be interpreted from
the
difference. However I think you can see why the issue is so important to
XRI
3.0 -- in XRI 2.0 the _only_ cross-reference that can be expressed in
the
"scare quote" version, whereas in normal natural language (as
in typical XDI
RDF), it's the global cross-reference version that's needed.
Hope this helps,
=Drummond
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Giovanni Bartolomeo [
mailto:]
> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 9:04 AM
> To: Chasen, Les; Drummond Reed; OASIS XRI TC
> Cc: OASIS - XDI TC
> Subject: RE: [xdi] Global Cross-Reference Proposal
>
> Hello, I'm not sure to understand your last statement:
>
> > In both cases the definition behind =Drummond comes from
@cordance.
>
> Maybe I'm getting wrong, but in XDI (which means basically in
this
> XRI3.0 proposal), @cordance=Drummond can be composed if and only
if
> the statement @cordance/$has/=Drummond (aggregation) holds.
According
> to my understanding, this should sound: =Drummond does not come
from
> @cordance, rather, it is @cordance which is an aggregation of
people
> like =Drummond.
> What do you think?
>
> Thanks,
> Giovanni
>
> At 17.30 07/11/2008, Chasen, Les wrote:
> >I still do not understand how @cordance=Drummond and
> >@cordance*(=Drummond) differ. I understand you are saying
that one is
> >global and the other is local but they are both cross references
to
> >=Drummond. In both cases the definition behind =Drummond
comes from
> >@cordance.
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Drummond Reed [
mailto:]
> > > Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 2:54 AM
> > > To: 'OASIS XRI TC'
> > > Cc: 'OASIS - XDI TC'
> > > Subject: [xdi] Global Cross-Reference Proposal
> > >
> > > I finally had time tonight to complete the writeup of the
Global
> > > Cross-Reference proposal for XRI Syntax 3.0. This is based
mostly on
> > > requirements from the XDI TC that go back to the dawn of
the XDI RDF
> > > model.
> > > We have been discussing them on our last few weekly
telecons in order
> > > to
> > > document them in detail before the XRI TC F2F next
week.
> > >
> > > The full proposal is written up at:
> > >
> > >
http://wiki.oasis-open.org/xri/XriThree/GlobalCrossReferences
> > >
> > > Since this is the proposal with the biggest impact on XRI
3.0 syntax,
> >I
> > > urge
> > > all XRI TC members to read through it and comment on the
list.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > =Drummond
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
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