Hi Giovanni (& All),
I agree with the requirement to support "scare quotes". I
think both syntaxes support it.
Those of us who believe that both syntaxes have equivalent
meaning, and an equivalent underlying graph, have been askinig for a sensible
description of the proposed differences for a year and a half. So far, none of
the proposed differences make sense to me.
;
CISSP
Associate
Technical Fellow
Information Security Technical Controls
(206) 679-5933
From: Giovanni Bartolomeo
[mailto:]
Sent: Tuesday, November 11,
2008 3:00 AM
To: Chasen, Les; Barnhill, William [USA]; Drummond
Reed
Cc: OASIS - XDI TC; OASIS XRI TC
Subject: [xri] RE:
[xdi] Global Cross-Reference Proposal
Hi,
it seems that this topic underlines a slightly different
approach between the two TCs. I've been not very involved in XRI TC, as my focus
is more on semantics - so please pardon me if I'm entering this "inter-TC"
thread from a pure XDI perspective.
I guess that the different viewpoints are
due to the fact that XRI TC focus is more on syntax, whereas XDI, in order to
fulfill its goals, needs also a very powerful semantic model. In particular, the
capability to "scare quote" a statement, that is, to find a way to express
beliefs of entities about other entities is a fundamental one in intelligent
systems (see for example belief in BDI model in software agents, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDI_software_agent#Beliefs).
Personally, I think, this feature should be supported by XDI and the
proposed syntax is one of the most straightforward we can have. I also
understand this has a cost from a pure XRI perspective, as Les says, aesthetics,
and probably the need to explain to XRI users the difference between the two
options, but, making a balance between pros and cons, I think it worths to be
supported.
Thanks,
Giovanni
At 20.34 10/11/2008, Chasen, Les
wrote:
I see this as two ways to say the
same thing. In both cases =Drummond is a cross reference to
@xpinion. In Drummond’s proposal I guess one of them refers
to =Drummond in scary quotes and the other doesn’t. Do we really need
that?
The original reason (and AFAICT the only reason) for this
syntax was aesthetics. I agree it is easier to read and type the more
compact syntax of @xpinion=Drummond. However, inventing a distinction
between the two cross references creates confusion.
From: Barnhill, William [USA] [
mailto:]
Sent: Monday, November 10,
2008 2:14 PM
To: Chasen, Les; Giovanni Bartolomeo; Drummond
Reed
Cc: OASIS - XDI TC; OASIS XRI TC
Subject: RE: [xdi]
Global Cross-Reference Proposal
So here's a use case that's near
and dear to me:
Let's say someone has a site that is an XRI/XDI
enabled version of Epinions.com, @xpinions. @xpinions wants to make an
assertion about =Drummond that they control, not that =Drummond controls.
Let's say that Drummond is communitive
=>
@xpionions*(=Drummond)/$is/(+communitive) [Btw, <-
correct? shorter way of stating?]
Let's say they also want to
reference/pt to a statement that =Drummond says he's open
=>
@xpinions=Drummond/$is/(+open)
Does the above make sense
and show need for both? Also is syntax correct for v3, and is there a more
concise way to express
it?
Thanks,
=Bill.Barnhill
From: Chasen, Les [
mailto:]
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008
2:03 PM
To: Giovanni Bartolomeo; Drummond Reed
Cc: OASIS -
XDI TC; Barnhill, William [USA]; OASIS XRI TC
Subject: RE: [xdi]
Global Cross-Reference Proposal
I don't see the importance here. You
are introducing a semantic "scare quote" difference between the current
"local" cross references and the proposed "global" cross references. I
find that distinction so very nuanced that it is confusing. I don't
understand why we want to introduce this into
XRI.
From: Giovanni Bartolomeo [
mailto:]
Sent: Monday, November
10, 2008 1:01 PM
To: Drummond Reed
Cc: 'OASIS - XDI TC';
Barnhill, William [USA]; Chasen, Les; 'OASIS XRI TC'
Subject: RE:
[xdi] Global Cross-Reference Proposal
Thanks Drummond, it
clarifies indeed! Wow, that's a very powerful mechanism!
And should also
answer Bill's question:
"If the following is now a reference to the
global =Drummond:
@cordance=drummond
<== global scope – NOT ALLOWED IN XRI 2.0
then how would @cordance make
a statement 'about' =Drummond?"
is my understanding correct?
Thanks!
Giovanni
At 18.13 10/11/2008, Drummond Reed
wrote:
Giovanni,
I forgot to cc the XDI TC list on my reply to Les
this morning. I'm
including it below just to clarify the question you
asked. Note that your
point about the XDI statement being reflected only
applies to XRIs in an XDI
context (which is of course what the XDI TC is
focused on). In XRI 3.0 the
semantics are more universal, i.e., what does
an XRI cross-reference mean in
_any_ context.
Best,
=Drummond
********** DRUMMOND'S EARLIER REPLY TO LES ***************
Les,
you're right that in both @cordance=drummond and @cordance*(=drummond),
you
can infer a semantic relationship between the subsegments (@cordance
and
=drummond) and their global XRIs.
However, in the latter case, I
think the only interpretation you can infer
is that the entity being
referred to by *(=drummond) is being referred to IN
A DIFFERENT CONTEXT
than =drummond.
The rationale is the same as the example I gave in
natural language on the
wiki page, which is when quotes are used in English
to explicitly
communicate that a particular word/phrase is being used in
"quotes",
specifically what are called "scare quotes" (thanks to John
Bradley for
educating me about that phrase). There's a good Wikipedia
article on
scare
quotes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scare_quote
The
example I used on the wiki page
was:
Boeing "international"
employment contract signature date
In that phrase, the only thing an
English reader can interpret about the
word "international" is that it is
being used in a different context than
the normal use of the word. I think
it's safe to say that in order to
understand what context applies (and
therefore what the word really means in
that context), you have to look
either at the immediate context of the full
sentence, or the full
paragraph, or the full context in which it appears.
Which is exactly
the meaning of "local context symbols" in XRI.
Therefore the following
line up nicely:
Boeing
"international" employment contract signature
date
@boeing*(+international)+employment$contract$sig$d
...and...
Boeing international employment contract signature
date
@boeing+international+employment$contract$sig$d
I don't think there's
any more semantics that can be interpreted from the
difference. However I
think you can see why the issue is so important to XRI
3.0 -- in XRI 2.0
the _only_ cross-reference that can be expressed in the
"scare quote"
version, whereas in normal natural language (as in typical XDI
RDF), it's
the global cross-reference version that's needed.
Hope this
helps,
=Drummond
> -----Original Message-----
>
From: Giovanni Bartolomeo [ mailto:]
> Sent:
Monday, November 10, 2008 9:04 AM
> To: Chasen, Les; Drummond Reed;
OASIS XRI TC
> Cc: OASIS - XDI TC
> Subject: RE: [xdi] Global
Cross-Reference Proposal
>
> Hello, I'm not sure to understand
your last statement:
>
> > In both cases the definition
behind =Drummond comes from @cordance.
>
> Maybe I'm getting
wrong, but in XDI (which means basically in this
> XRI3.0 proposal),
@cordance=Drummond can be composed if and only if
> the statement
@cordance/$has/=Drummond (aggregation) holds. According
> to my
understanding, this should sound: =Drummond does not come from
>
@cordance, rather, it is @cordance which is an aggregation of people
>
like =Drummond.
> What do you think?
>
> Thanks,
>
Giovanni
>
> At 17.30 07/11/2008, Chasen, Les wrote:
>
>I still do not understand how @cordance=Drummond and
>
>@cordance*(=Drummond) differ. I understand you are saying that one
is
> >global and the other is local but they are both cross
references to
> >=Drummond. In both cases the definition behind
=Drummond comes from
> >@cordance.
> >
> >
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Drummond Reed [
mailto:]
> > >
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 2:54 AM
> > > To: 'OASIS XRI
TC'
> > > Cc: 'OASIS - XDI TC'
> > > Subject: [xdi]
Global Cross-Reference Proposal
> > >
> > > I finally
had time tonight to complete the writeup of the Global
> > >
Cross-Reference proposal for XRI Syntax 3.0. This is based mostly on
>
> > requirements from the XDI TC that go back to the dawn of the XDI
RDF
> > > model.
> > > We have been discussing them on
our last few weekly telecons in order
> > > to
> > >
document them in detail before the XRI TC F2F next week.
> >
>
> > > The full proposal is written up at:
> >
>
> > > http://wiki.oasis-open.org/xri/XriThree/GlobalCrossReferences
>
> >
> > > Since this is the proposal with the biggest impact
on XRI 3.0 syntax,
> >I
> > > urge
> > > all
XRI TC members to read through it and comment on the list.
> >
>
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > >
=Drummond
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
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