RE: [xri] RE: [xdi] Global Cross-Reference Proposal

I think the question here is what is the difference between
these two statements:

 

@xpinions=drummond/($is)/(+closed)

 

And

 

@xpinions*(=Drummond)/($is)/(+closed)

 

Seems to me that in both cases this XRI is either indicating @xpinions’
belief (is that the right word) that ‘=drummond is closed’ or it is
asking the question ‘is =drummond closed’ of @xpinions.

 

I think this becomes a lot more confusing if one of these is @xpinions’
belief in a global sense and another in a local sense.  The same confusion
exists if this statement is a question of @xpinions.

 

 

 

From: Barnhill, William
[USA] [mailto:] 

Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 10:43 AM

To: Schleiff, Marty; Chasen, Les; Giovanni Bartolomeo; Drummond Reed

Cc: OASIS - XDI TC; OASIS XRI TC

Subject: RE: [xri] RE: [xdi] Global Cross-Reference Proposal

 

Hi Marty,

 

It's nitpicking with semantics, but with reasoning the nits are
important :).  From my standpoint Epinions stating that drummond is closed
[ @xpinions=drummond/($is)/(+closed) ] is not refuting Drummonds claim, but
instead asserting a new claim that Drummond is closed.

 

Using =drummond/$is/(+open) oth would mean the *according to
=drummond* ( the data authority) =Drummond is open.

 

But the example I'm thinking of is that Epinions wants to say
that the claim Drummond makes that he's open is valid. I think this would be,
in other words they are making an assertion about an assertion made by another
data authority.

 

I believe in XRI3 (lack of parens) this would be
@epinions*(=drummond/$is/+open)/$is/+valid

 

Thanks,

Bill

 

 

 

From: Schleiff, Marty
[mailto:] 

Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 10:33 AM

To: Barnhill, William [USA]; Chasen, Les; Giovanni Bartolomeo; Drummond
Reed

Cc: OASIS - XDI TC; OASIS XRI TC

Subject: RE: [xri] RE: [xdi] Global Cross-Reference Proposal

Hi Bill,

 

If they also want to reference/pt to a statement that =Drummond
says he's open, why not just use "=drummond/$is/(+open)"? Then if the
Epinions wants to refute that claim, they can use
"@xpinions=drummond/($is)/(+closed)".

 

Of course I agree with Les that Epinions could express the same
opinion with "@xpinions*(=drummond)/($is)/(+closed)".

 

; CISSP

Associate
Technical Fellow 

Information
Security Technical Controls 

(206) 679-5933

 

 

From: Barnhill, William [USA]
[mailto:] 

Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 11:14 AM

To: Chasen, Les; Giovanni Bartolomeo; Drummond Reed

Cc: OASIS - XDI TC; OASIS XRI TC

Subject: [xri] RE: [xdi] Global Cross-Reference Proposal

So here's a use case that's near and dear to me:

 

Let's say someone has a site that is an XRI/XDI enabled version of
Epinions.com, @xpinions. @xpinions wants to make an assertion about =Drummond
that they control, not that =Drummond controls. Let's say that Drummond is
communitive =>

@xpionions*(=Drummond)/$is/(+communitive)   [Btw, <-
correct? shorter way of stating?]

 

Let's say they also want to reference/pt to a statement that
=Drummond says he's open =>

@xpinions=Drummond/$is/(+open)

 

Does the above make sense and show need for both? Also is syntax
correct for v3, and is there a more concise way to express it?

 

Thanks,

=Bill.Barnhill

 

 

From: Chasen, Les [mailto:]

Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 2:03 PM

To: Giovanni Bartolomeo; Drummond Reed

Cc: OASIS - XDI TC; Barnhill, William [USA]; OASIS XRI TC

Subject: RE: [xdi] Global Cross-Reference Proposal

I don't see the importance here.  You are introducing
a semantic "scare quote" difference between the current
"local" cross references and the proposed "global" cross
references.  I find that distinction so very nuanced that it is
confusing.  I don't understand why we want to introduce this into XRI.

 

 

From: Giovanni Bartolomeo
[mailto:] 

Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 1:01 PM

To: Drummond Reed

Cc: 'OASIS - XDI TC'; Barnhill, William [USA]; Chasen, Les; 'OASIS XRI
TC'

Subject: RE: [xdi] Global Cross-Reference Proposal

 

Thanks Drummond, it clarifies
indeed! Wow, that's a very powerful mechanism!

And should also answer Bill's question:

"If the following is now a reference to the
global =Drummond:

     
@cordance=drummond             
<== global scope – NOT ALLOWED IN XRI 2.0

then how would @cordance make a statement 'about' =Drummond?"

is my understanding correct? 

Thanks!

Giovanni

At 18.13 10/11/2008, Drummond Reed wrote:

Giovanni,

I forgot to cc the XDI TC list on my reply to Les this morning. I'm

including it below just to clarify the question you asked. Note that your

point about the XDI statement being reflected only applies to XRIs in an XDI

context (which is of course what the XDI TC is focused on). In XRI 3.0 the

semantics are more universal, i.e., what does an XRI cross-reference mean in

_any_ context.

Best,

=Drummond 

********** DRUMMOND'S EARLIER REPLY TO LES ***************

Les, you're right that in both @cordance=drummond and @cordance*(=drummond),

you can infer a semantic relationship between the subsegments (@cordance and

=drummond) and their global XRIs.

However, in the latter case, I think the only interpretation you can infer

is that the entity being referred to by *(=drummond) is being referred to IN

A DIFFERENT CONTEXT than =drummond.

The rationale is the same as the example I gave in natural language on the

wiki page, which is when quotes are used in English to explicitly

communicate that a particular word/phrase is being used in "quotes",

specifically what are called "scare quotes" (thanks to John Bradley
for

educating me about that phrase). There's a good Wikipedia article on scare

quotes:

         http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scare_quote

The example I used on the wiki page was:

        Boeing
"international" employment contract signature date

In that phrase, the only thing an English reader can interpret about the

word "international" is that it is being used in a different context
than

the normal use of the word. I think it's safe to say that in order to

understand what context applies (and therefore what the word really means in

that context), you have to look either at the immediate context of the full

sentence, or the full paragraph, or the full context in which it appears. 

Which is exactly the meaning of "local context symbols" in XRI.

Therefore the following line up nicely:

        Boeing
"international" employment contract signature date

        
@boeing*(+international)+employment$contract$sig$d

...and...

        Boeing international employment
contract signature date

        
@boeing+international+employment$contract$sig$d

I don't think there's any more semantics that can be interpreted from the

difference. However I think you can see why the issue is so important to XRI

3.0 -- in XRI 2.0 the _only_ cross-reference that can be expressed in the

"scare quote" version, whereas in normal natural language (as in
typical XDI

RDF), it's the global cross-reference version that's needed.

Hope this helps,

=Drummond

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Giovanni Bartolomeo [
mailto:]

> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 9:04 AM

> To: Chasen, Les; Drummond Reed; OASIS XRI TC

> Cc: OASIS - XDI TC

> Subject: RE: [xdi] Global Cross-Reference Proposal

> 

> Hello, I'm not sure to understand your last statement:

> 

>  > In both cases the definition behind =Drummond comes from
@cordance.

> 

> Maybe I'm getting wrong, but in XDI (which means basically in this

> XRI3.0 proposal), @cordance=Drummond can be composed if and only if

> the statement @cordance/$has/=Drummond (aggregation) holds. According

> to my understanding, this should sound: =Drummond does not come from

> @cordance, rather, it is @cordance which is an aggregation of people

> like =Drummond.

> What do you think?

> 

> Thanks,

> Giovanni

> 

> At 17.30 07/11/2008, Chasen, Les wrote:

> >I still do not understand how @cordance=Drummond and

> >@cordance*(=Drummond) differ.  I understand you are saying that
one is

> >global and the other is local but they are both cross references to

> >=Drummond.  In both cases the definition behind =Drummond comes
from

> >@cordance.

> >

> >

> > > -----Original Message-----

> > > From: Drummond Reed [
mailto:]

> > > Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 2:54 AM

> > > To: 'OASIS XRI TC'

> > > Cc: 'OASIS - XDI TC'

> > > Subject: [xdi] Global Cross-Reference Proposal

> > >

> > > I finally had time tonight to complete the writeup of the Global

> > > Cross-Reference proposal for XRI Syntax 3.0. This is based
mostly on

> > > requirements from the XDI TC that go back to the dawn of the XDI
RDF

> > > model.

> > > We have been discussing them on our last few weekly telecons in
order

> > > to

> > > document them in detail before the XRI TC F2F next week.

> > >

> > > The full proposal is written up at:

> > >

> > >       http://wiki.oasis-open.org/xri/XriThree/GlobalCrossReferences

> > >

> > > Since this is the proposal with the biggest impact on XRI 3.0
syntax,

> >I

> > > urge

> > > all XRI TC members to read through it and comment on the list.

> > >

> > > Thanks,

> > >

> > > =Drummond

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >
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