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Re: [office-accessibility] Re: [office] Re: [office-accessibility] Re: [office] usecases for "is-subtable" attribute
Rich, I suspect that the current consensus is sufficient, i.e. document that table:is-subtable should not be used to implement split/merge. The open switch is for the AccSC team to agree that other use cases do not have problems. One example given was the layout for a Sudoku game which is a 3x3 grid where each cell in turn contains a 3x3 grid. Using subtables I think the addressing scheme would look like this (using a 2x2 equivalent) .A1.A1 .A1.B1 .B1.A1 .B1.B1 .A1.A2 .A1.B2 .B1.A2 .B1.B2 .A2.A1 .A2.B1 .B2.A1 .B2.B1 .A2.A2 .A2.B2 .B2.A2 .B2.B2 My initial reaction is that cell addressing scenario would not be confusing. I also asked for some other kind of use case and Andreas suggested array-valued functions in a spread sheet. I am not familiar with this so I asked him to describe the table structure. Pete Brunet IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development 11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758 Voice: (512) 838-4594, TL 678-4594, Fax: (512) 838-9666 Ionosphere: WS4G Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS 07/10/2007 05:47 PM To Lars Oppermann <> cc Dave Pawson <>, , OASIS Office <>, , Pete Brunet/Austin/IBM@IBMUS, Hironobu Takagi <> Subject [office-accessibility] Re: [office] Re: [office-accessibility] Re: [office] use cases for "is-subtable" attribute Thank you Lars. We will have to try out some more samples but this seems to address our problem. Pete, Hiro, do you concur? Rich Rich Schwerdtfeger Distinguished Engineer, SWG Accessibility Architect/Strategist Chair, IBM Accessibility Architecture Review Board blog: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/schwer Lars Oppermann <> Lars Oppermann <> Sent by: 07/10/2007 04:08 AM To Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS cc Dave Pawson <>, OASIS Office <>, Subject Re: [office] Re: [office-accessibility] Re: [office] use cases for "is-subtable" attribute Hi Rich, Thanks for the explanation. I agree, that for the case shown in the document, implementing this via subtables leads to confusing cell addresses. This is because sub-tables were used to implement the _merging_ of cells. OpenOffic.org Writer indeed used to implement table cell merges like this. OpenOffice.org Calc did and does not. It uses number-rows-spanned. Most of the subtable discussion right now is around the subdivision, partitioning or splitting of cells. Note that there is no user interface function in OpenOffice.org Calc to do this. The initial table grid represents the minimal partitioning. You can only merge cells, so if you want the effect of a split, you'd need to merge all other cells. I think there is consensus about subtables being inappropriate for the representation of merged cells. However, some feel that being able to partition a table cell by inserting a subtable and having this subtable's border be defined by the enclosing cell's border is useful too. Hence the suggestion to not generally depreciate the is-subtable attribute but to explicitly state in which circumstances it is deprecated, viz. to represent merged cells. Bests, Lars Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote: > Lars, > > The bottom line is a blind user is navigating a spreadsheet and when you > drop in a subtable the reference to the cells does not match the > underlying header. Blind users use the grid structure and headings to > maintain a point of reference. When that is not consistent the user gets > lost. We ran into this problem working with freedom scientific and our > ODF 1.1 support by the Notes 8 Productivity Editors. The JAWS developer, > who is blind, got lost and asked that we correct the issue. > > Please see section 3.3 of this document. It is pretty self explanatory. > Here you will see the use .B2.B1 under a row header of C1. The user is lost. > > http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/office-accessibility/download.php/24546/ODF_Accessibility_Guidelines_26_5July2007.odt > > Hope this answers your question. > > Cheers, > > Rich > > Rich Schwerdtfeger > Distinguished Engineer, SWG Accessibility Architect/Strategist > Chair, IBM Accessibility Architecture Review Board > blog: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/schwer > Inactive hide details for "Dave Pawson" <>"Dave > Pawson" <> > > > *"Dave Pawson" <>* > > 07/09/2007 12:23 PM > > > > To > > "Lars Oppermann" <> > > cc > > "OASIS Office" <>, > > > Subject > > [office-accessibility] Re: [office] use cases for "is-subtable" attribute > > > > > On 09/07/07, Lars Oppermann <> wrote: > > Hi Dave, > > > > Could you elaborate a bit more on the reasons why a nested table is a > > problem for access technology? From my (naive) point of view, it would > > appear somewhat more confusing to navigate a lot of spanned cells rather > > than entering a subtable. > > Suggestion. > > Find a friendly access technology user, perhaps a blind person? > Ask them how table navigation works. > > If you sit alongside them, they can guide you through table navigation. > Better still, put on a blindfold and try it for yourself. > cell spanning has been around for a while. > sub-tables seems to be an ODF invention? > > > Either believe the accessibility sub-committee or find out from an end user. > I'm sure Peter or Rich can introduce you to an AT user if you ask nicely. > > regards > > > -- > Dave Pawson > XSLT XSL-FO FAQ. > http://www.dpawson.co.uk > -- Sun Microsystems Lars Oppermann <> Nagelsweg 55 Software Engineer 20097 Hamburg, Germany Phone: +49 40 23646 959 http://www.sun.com/ Fax: +49 40 23646 550 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Sitz der Gesellschaft: Sun Microsystems GmbH, Sonnenallee 1, D-85551 Kirchheim-Heimstetten, Amtsgericht Muenchen: HRB 161028 Geschaeftsfuehrer: Wolfgang Engels, Dr. Roland Boemer Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrates: Martin Haering
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