Re: [office] Re: [office-accessibility] Re: [office] Re: [office-accessibility] Re: [office] usecases for "is-subtable" attribute

Pete, 

Is the Sudoku example an appropriate
use case to discuss the future direction of office documents? 

I tried hard to find other examples
of "logically nested" tables, but I could not find any.... 

I agree that the Sudoku is an example
of a semantically (essentially) nested table, even if it may not be an
appropriate example.

We have some alternative methods to
deal with the example, e.g. table headers, use of nested tables (not is-subtable),
use of just table with instruction (since it has special semantics for
a game), and so on. 

I feel the table header is the best
method to deal with the example, since we can add "controllable (editable,
modifiable)" semantics to each cell.

Anyway, I want to investigate more examples,
if possible.

Thank you.

Hiro

---------------------

Hironobu Takagi, PhD.

User Experience and Accessibility Technology

Tokyo Research Laboratory, IBM Research

+81-46-215-4557

E-mail: 

Pete
Brunet <>

To:
,


cc:

Subject:  
[office] Re: [office-accessibility]
Re: [office] Re: [office-accessibility] Re: [office] use cases for "is-subtable"
attribute

From:
Pete Brunet <>
- Wednesday, July 11, 2007, 08:31

Rich, I suspect that the current consensus is sufficient, i.e. document
that table:is-subtable should not be used to implement split/merge.  The
open switch is for the AccSC team to agree that other use cases do not
have problems.  One example given was the layout for a Sudoku game
which is a 3x3 grid where each cell in turn contains a 3x3 grid.  Using
subtables I think the addressing scheme would look like this (using a 2x2
equivalent) 

.A1.A1 .A1.B1 .B1.A1 .B1.B1 

.A1.A2 .A1.B2 .B1.A2 .B1.B2 

.A2.A1 .A2.B1 .B2.A1 .B2.B1 

.A2.A2 .A2.B2 .B2.A2 .B2.B2 

My initial reaction is that cell addressing scenario would not be confusing.

I also asked for some other kind of use case and Andreas suggested array-valued
functions in a spread sheet.  I am not familiar with this so I asked
him to describe the table structure. 

Pete Brunet

                    
                     
                     
        

IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development

11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758

Voice: (512) 838-4594, TL 678-4594, Fax: (512) 838-9666

Ionosphere: WS4G

Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS

07/10/2007 05:47 PM

To

Lars Oppermann <>

cc

Dave Pawson <>,
, OASIS Office <>,
, Pete Brunet/Austin/IBM@IBMUS,
Hironobu Takagi <> 

Subject

[office-accessibility] Re: [office]
Re: [office-accessibility] Re: [office] use cases for "is-subtable"
attribute

Thank you Lars. We will have to try out some more samples but this seems
to address our problem. 

Pete, Hiro, do you concur?

Rich

Rich Schwerdtfeger

Distinguished Engineer, SWG Accessibility Architect/Strategist

Chair, IBM Accessibility Architecture Review Board

blog: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/schwer

Lars
Oppermann <>

Lars Oppermann <>

Sent by:  

07/10/2007 04:08 AM 

To

Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS 

cc

Dave Pawson <>, OASIS Office <>,
 

Subject

Re: [office] Re: [office-accessibility] Re: [office] use cases for "is-subtable"
attribute

Hi Rich,

Thanks for the explanation. I agree, that for the case shown in the 

document, implementing this via subtables leads to confusing cell 

addresses. This is because sub-tables were used to implement the 

_merging_ of cells. OpenOffic.org Writer indeed used to implement table

cell merges like this. OpenOffice.org Calc did and does not. It uses 

number-rows-spanned.

Most of the subtable discussion right now is around the subdivision, 

partitioning or splitting of cells. Note that there is no user interface

function in OpenOffice.org Calc to do this. The initial table grid 

represents the minimal partitioning. You can only merge cells, so if you

want the effect of a split, you'd need to merge all other cells.

I think there is consensus about subtables being inappropriate for the

representation of merged cells.

However, some feel that being able to partition a table cell by 

inserting a subtable and having this subtable's border be defined by the

enclosing cell's border is useful too. Hence the suggestion to not 

generally depreciate the is-subtable attribute but to explicitly state

in which circumstances it is deprecated, viz. to represent merged cells.

Bests,

Lars

Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote:

> Lars,

> 

> The bottom line is a blind user is navigating a spreadsheet and when
you 

> drop in a subtable the reference to the cells does not match the 

> underlying header. Blind users use the grid structure and headings
to 

> maintain a point of reference. When that is not consistent the user
gets 

> lost. We ran into this problem working with freedom scientific and
our 

> ODF 1.1 support by the Notes 8 Productivity Editors. The JAWS developer,

> who is blind, got lost and asked that we correct the issue.

> 

> Please see section 3.3 of this document. It is pretty self explanatory.

> Here you will see the use .B2.B1 under a row header of C1. The user
is lost.

> 

> http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/office-accessibility/download.php/24546/ODF_Accessibility_Guidelines_26_5July2007.odt

> 

> Hope this answers your question.

> 

> Cheers,

> 

> Rich

> 

> Rich Schwerdtfeger

> Distinguished Engineer, SWG Accessibility Architect/Strategist

> Chair, IBM Accessibility Architecture Review Board

> blog: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/schwer

> Inactive hide details for "Dave Pawson" <>"Dave

> Pawson" <>

> 

> 

>                    
    *"Dave Pawson" <>*

> 

>                    
    07/09/2007 12:23 PM

> 

> 

> 

> To

> 

> "Lars Oppermann" <>

> 

> cc

> 

> "OASIS Office" <>, 

> 

> 

> Subject

> 

> [office-accessibility] Re: [office] use cases for "is-subtable"
attribute

> 

> 

> 

> 

> On 09/07/07, Lars Oppermann <> wrote:

>  > Hi Dave,

>  >

>  > Could you elaborate a bit more on the reasons why a nested
table is a

>  > problem for access technology? From my (naive) point of
view, it would

>  > appear somewhat more confusing to navigate a lot of spanned
cells rather

>  > than entering a subtable.

> 

> Suggestion.

> 

> Find a friendly access technology user, perhaps a blind person?

> Ask them how table navigation works.

> 

> If you sit alongside them, they can guide you through table navigation.

> Better still, put on a blindfold and try it for yourself.

> cell spanning has been around for a while.

> sub-tables seems to be an ODF invention?

> 

> 

> Either believe the accessibility sub-committee or find out from an
end user.

> I'm sure Peter or Rich can introduce you to an AT user if you ask
nicely.

> 

> regards

> 

> 

> -- 

> Dave Pawson

> XSLT XSL-FO FAQ.

> http://www.dpawson.co.uk

> 

-- 

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